WildConcept6

@Ken_Kaniff Nintendo ports would be so huge. It's not even about playing their exclusives, it's that native Nintendo games legally available on PC would be such a HUGE boon to game preservation.

You know what's interesting? Thus far Microsoft has supported the Nintendo Switch 2 less than Sony. And Xbox was clamoring about supporting the Switch 2 ahead of the console's release.

I do like that it's noted this is a comment, not a report, because anyone could say Microsoft is going to do more ports. Rather I'm surprised it's taking them this long to announce any. After the numbers Forza Horizon 5 did, that's it. A four year game just sold more copies in 3 months on one platform than most games sell in their entire lifetime. A four year old game is outselling the top dogs of this year on that platform. A four year old Xbox game has just outsold Sony's own award winning exclusives. If you're a business you'd be foolish to scoff at that.

This also isn't unique to Xbox. More games than ever are doing multiplatform support. Sony will 100% release more games on Xbox following the massive success Helldivers will inevitably be. I wouldn't be surprised if we see them do day one everywhere launches for their future live service games. At under 2 years, Helldivers 2 is making the jump far sooner than the biggest Xbox ports. Beyond that Sony is enjoying massive success porting both their single player and multiplayer games to PC and they'll likely achieve day and date soon. Sony's also supported the Nintendo Switch more and even let lego horizons (a first party IP if not a first party developed game) go to Switch day one.

Like logically I don't get the idea that Xbox is somehow an outlier here or otherwise doomed for doing this. A comment that consoles on the whole are doomed would make more sense, but even that wouldn't be fully accurate. The reality is that consoles have already failed in the eyes of shareholders and wider scope of the industry. Growth isn't there and margins are getting razor thin. Exclusives aren't working well enough and they aren't worth the money that Sony and Microsoft are bleeding in gaming because the overall console market is stuck. The failure goes beyond exclusives. I'd argue that exclusives are partly to blame. The market has been built on walled gardens, fragmenting customers, and weaponizing gamers against one another. That was never sustainable. Now it's biting everyone in the foot as most gamers spend all their time in free games that are available on every platform and new gamers choose PC & mobile hardware over traditional home consoles.

We priveleged on these forums and dedicated internet console hotspots have completely narrowed our world view. The biggest games are factually on everything and you can't ignore that. Microsoft and Sony can't ignore that. They both see the figures and both are struggling with profit margins and obtaining the growth that their shareholders demand. It's not some sort of conspiracy. It's not an Xbox vs Playstation thing. Literally every publisher is trending toward supporting every platform possible from day one. And money is what's pushing that. Reality isn't different on one side of the fence than the other. Playstation is still releasing former exclusives on PC and Nintendo even when they don't support Xbox as much, and regardless many of their partners are making the choice to support Xbox over doing PS exclusives. If exclusives are what determine console sales, then PlayStation is under more threat than Xbox because they've lost far more exclusives to PC, Nintendo, and Xbox.

@TheGameThrifter Huh? All of the multiplatform ports so far (and I'm not considering Doom as that was always multiplatform) have absolutely dominated on the PS storefront save pentiment and hi fi rush (two single player AA games with smaller audiences). I think also Age of Mythology but the strategy genre is niche on the whole. Xbox literally took over Playstation's storefront for a time because of those releases. What do you think average game sales are? You're talking like a 4 year old game selling 3 million copies on a single platform in the span of LESS than 3 months isn't significant. And it sold 2 million in the first month. In comparison Death Stranding 2 has sold 1 million in its first month. Assassins Creed Shadows has sold 2 million. Elden Ring Nightreign one and a half ish million copies. (all on Playstation only). Forza Horizon 5 has even sold more than Monster Hunter wilds on PS with wilds selling 2.9 million. That's insane. Monster Hunter is one of the biggest franchises globally and on PlayStation a 4 year old game outsold the latest Monster Hunter entry.

To your point, whose buying new consoles period? The entire market has stagnated. Gamers need to get out of this bubble that consoles aren't on the whole a failure and part of the reason why the industry is being squeezed right now. Consoles have failed in reaching new audiences. Even Nintendo has responded: they chose incredible price increases for their games and hardware while also controlling costs. Xbox AND Sony have taken to expanding their consumer base to new platforms. Helldivers 2 is coming to Xbox after less than 2 years. That's an even shorter exclusivity window than Forza (far shorter than Sea of Thieves). And Helldivers will be a Playstation Published game (the first on Xbox) and is an IP wholly owned by Sony (unlike MLB). At the same time third parties are abandoning Sony exclusivity in droves. Why buy an Xbox? Well, why not? There's factually more games than supporting the platform. The Playstation has lost far more exclusives than Xbox specifically because of the vast number of third party games that have ported or done day one titles. And you'd be foolish to think that Sony is going to stop after Helldivers 2 just like you'd have been foolish to think Microsoft would stop after "just those four games". At the same time Sony will only continue to support PC and they'll probably achieve day and date by the end of this gen. Even ignoring all of that, new gamers have already rejected the idea of buying consoles for exclusives: they are not buying consoles at all.

@Lup Yeah and this is a four year old game. That's nothing to sleep on. Forza Horizon 5 is four years old and it's outselling the latest Monster Hunter, Death Stranding 2, Astrobot, Assassins Creed Shadows, and Elden Ring Nightreign. That's bonkers. Forza Horizon 5 wasn't moving any new Xbox console sales after 4 years, so there's really no way to spin this other than as a massive success.

@Tasuki I'm not saying it's not obxious of Activision (well now Xbox themselves), but it does admittedly work for all our grumbling. A game like COD doesn't care how people talk about it online or even it's identity. Integrity is probably a foreign word entirely. The collabs do make them money, so they'll keep doing them. They'll frankly say whatever nonsense or treat people however they want to, until it starts to affect playtime hours. We're just a statistic to them. You're not wrong in anything you're saying. I'm just saying I'd be surprised if the suits pushing for this stuff care.

@GuyinPA75 yeah, I just specifically wanted Xbox to incorporate events into the game hub. That feature could use the visibility. Or they could bring Xbox Wire to console and incorporate it. Or Bing. Just something. The feature wasn't in insider testing long and the fact that the only thing Xbox has added since testing it is more ways to turn it off, just tells me they didn't let it cook nearly long enough. There's a lot of potential there. They could use some basic algorithms and let users customize it to really boost engagement. Stuff like relevant game news or turning it into a community gateway (maybe revitalize clubs and looking for group) or like connecting your YouTube account to show relevant video clips from your favorite creators. I don't know. Just something. I don't even dislike the feature, but it's also impossible to like because there's basically nothing there.

@themightyant I think consumer gamers have just been trained to have that sort of thinking. It's really rather tragic. The decades of console wars and generations has warped consumers into a people against each other. In order to feel confident in their purchase, a lot of gamers need to know that previous hardware has been abandoned. They'll say it's to not be held back, but umm, no. Current gen games don't look that much better than cross gen and a lot have had more technical issues because they weren't optimizing for the lower hardware. We also know that diminishing returns has been reached. And current gen now includes the Switch 2 (which people are fine (happy even) with multiplatform games releasing on). But that console is about as powerful (maybe a bit more but not much) as last gen. People really just to think their purchase is less justified when there's less "next gen" exclusives and it seems to be the console market reaping what it sowed. The PS4 and Xbox One generation really set this standard of a mass exodus of games. We had our libraries nuked and the justification was that next gen was just too powerful and games had to all be remade for it. Gamers accepted that as they had been because it became the norm. Whereas in any other industry that'd have led to death threats. And now gamers expect that and have convinced themselves that they need it. And yeah that'll happen. Especially when Sony continued to feed into that at the start of this generation saying they "believed in generations" and pushing those next gen upgrade remasters that charged way too much for minimal changes.

I see this as one of the biggest issues with gaming. Console gamers have been trained on the worst and most anticonsumer practices and now there's push back as companies, spurred by money and reality, actually get in line with what would be the expected norm in any other industry.

@Droopy I'm surprised it didn't get a bigger boost on the Pro as it's a 2021 cross gen title. It's great that it holds up so well. And heck, major kudos to it for selling this good 4 years after release.

@Tasuki I think the unfortunate reality is that this is no longer the expectation with the people who actively seek out and buy microtransactions. Games like Fortnite have trained them well. I don't disagree that it doesn't suit the game's aesthetic, but I also don't think that any of the people that care are the ones buying whaling on microtransactions. I mean do any of us even buy that many Microtransactions period? On COD in particular? Does anyone on this website. Because from what I've seen the people who even talk about Microtransactions often don't spend much on them. Microtransactions aren't targeting the people who think twice about them, and the people they are targeting spend a LOT of money on these collab cosmetics. Depending on the game and deal, companies might too. When all that money is on the table and the people that complain about it aren't contributing much to the piles of money, I just don't think publishers give a hoot about aesthetic. Game devs might, but they're also not the ones pushing Microtransactions (well most).

@Cakefish Aww, what a nice story. Most of my gaming (nearly all) has been solo, so I don't think of the effect wanting to play with others has. The most anyone else has influenced my gaming experience is a friend in high school convincing me to buy Destiny 2 on the PS4 I owned. But I don't even remember playing it. I just remember playing Battlefront 2 with them 😂.

@Kaloudz There was a big boost during COVID-19 (particularly lockdown) and that's also partially why all these layoffs and studio closures are happening. People were forced to stay home and had a lot of time (and money if they didn't need the stimulus checks for necessities (well at least in the US, not sure about other countries)) on their hands, so gaming just made a lot of sense. A lot of business people in the industry for some reason thought thought the boon was permanent. There was a ton of expansion as a result (hiring and scaling up of production), and then people didn't keep spending on gaming in droves after lockdown ended. The industry took a huge hit; they tried building an elevator to the moon but realized too late that there was no foundation. It's rather tragic because gaming was ALSO impacted by COVID-19. The supply chain for hardware was hit hard as well the game development process. It was the best chance gaming had to get new gamers and get new gamers playing new games, but the industry couldn't. Then they tried to scale up and do so AFTER THE FACT and that fumble is just costing people jobs. Though there are some massive successes from that time, namely Genshin Impact and Among Us and those games partially only really blew up because they were on mobile hardware in addition to PC and consoles (at least PS5 for Genshin). And Hoyo in particular has gained an entire massive new audience of fans excited for all their games. Maybe things would be different if companies at least kept work from home (giving people more time for hobbies), but largely they wanted people back in offices. I think even Microsoft wanted people back in offices. And 4ish years later we've mostly gone back to how it was before lockdown; there weren't any major consumer changes in the gaming industry for the most part. Except for the suits that misread the situation and scaled up production (or struck out like it's the gold rush (actually yeah, the gold rush is a great analogy here)) and now are taking a lot of people down with them. I also think some others just saw lockdown as the peak and didn't want to bother anymore. I mean, this is what I think with ABK. If you're an ABK and know you'll not grow that much anymore profit wise, then getting out of the game (business) is attractive.

For me this really begs the question of Forza Horizon 6. Forza Horizon 5 clearly still has legs, at least on new platforms, so do they really launch Forza Horizon 6 multiplatform day one in 2026 or even 2027? That'd just cannabalize the current game on PS and they could also put Forza Horizon 5 on the Switch 2. There's still a lot of money to be made from Microtransactions and plus you wouldn't want everyone to migrate to the next game after just a year. It's interesting because to me this is a case where multiplatform day one makes the least financial sense. I can believe Gears Reloaded on PS in 2025 and Gears 6 on PS in 2026 because the former isn't really recent enough to eat into the latter or vice versa. However, for Forza that's not the case. Forza Horizon 5 is still a very recent and solid game that can still make a ton as a live service game with Microtransactions on new platforms. To me financially what makes sense is dropping Forza Horizon 5 on the Switch 2 at some point and then holding off putting Forza Horizon 6 on PS and Nintendo (if the switch 2 could even run it) for 2 to 3 years.

Yeah Xbox does NOT have tbe political clout of Nintendo. Ain't no way they can jump on $80 games at the start. Everyone got mad at them when they were one of the very last publishers to do $70 games. That said it is still clear where this is going and the massive success of Mario Kart World (Nintendo exploits how loyal their fans are HARD) cements that. $80 games are coming. Xbox just doesn't have the popularity points to do them first.

@HardRockGamer Very unlikely considering the state of the industry. Microtransactions are like the vast majority of these companies profits at this point. And the public companies need to show growth with every new game for shareholders.

I hope this game was given the time it needed to cook and I hope even more than EA keeps expectations realistic. Like the rumors I heard of the game's budget and target player counts are insane and the type of thing that'd be an excuse to gut a studio for not doing the impossible.

@Kaloudz The industry has just unfortunately grown far bigger its audience. There's way too many games and too much oversaturation, and not enough consumers actually buying them. Most gamers these days spend all their time in the same few forever games. Apparently over half of the revenue Sony makes from Playstation comes from the same 10 games. There's more studios and games than ever and it's really a bloodbath for them all. At this point either the industry finds the holy grail and massively expands it's consumer base, or we'll just continue to see more shrinkage as the battlefield claims more victims. Even consolidation is a sign of shrinkage.

It's one of those features that get no fanfare because when it's working properly (implemented), it just works, and you don't notice it. Like it's not like you go in and "use" it. It's just there for games to automatically play their best version on your hardware and that's great.

As an insider I've noticed a LOT of ways to turn them off in settings that weren't there at the start. You can basically make it so they never pop up unless you click a game from the home screen. Even then you can skip the hub by clicking "X" instead of "A". To me that really says a lot. Honestly, the game hubs don't seem to do... anything? They don't really justify their existence much. The most use I get out of them is seeing my play hours for bragging rights, and that's it. Take for example, Overwatch 2, at the very least the game hub should bring up the current ongoing event or show some news related to the live service game but no. Because Microsoft can't incorporate their events app or their Xbox wire blog properly, the only news "updates" on the game hubs is from that failed instagram/Twitter style shortform post that never caught on (you know it's bad when a first party game doesn't even use it). I don't think Xbox had the juice to justify adding the game hubs. Can't say I'm bothered by them, but I also can't say they add anything to my experience.

@Millionski (last one I promise and you could honestly probably just read this one)
You're basing an entire argument about how Xbox is dead on the victim farming of a known terrible person. I'm just saying, maybe don't do that? This and that are different things entirely. Now does Xbox factually have worse support than Playstation and Nintendo? Sure but that's been the case since 2001, and Xbox this generation has had better support than ever. I fundamentally don't get the basis of using that as a foundation for why no one will ever develop for Xbox game, and I heavily suggest against using this game and this CEO as an example period. Ignoring the latter issue, following the formers logic Xbox should've "died" in the 360 generation and then again in the One generation, but it didn't either time. Now Xbox sees more third party support than ever from major publishers, smaller groups, and independents, and that's only trending up. And again even if we're being cynical and saying none of that matters and next gen there will just be a mass exodus of support out of nowhere... this game still isn't the example to use for that.

@Millionski Really let's be cynical about this. Ignore what I said about less games skipping Xbox and Xbox not being dead. Let's say the platform is dee-diddly-deadzo. Then market conditions still ain't got crap to do with "delaying" the release on Xbox. If that's truly the case then they wouldn't be trying to release on Xbox AT ALL and wouldn't promise to do so. If porting their game incurs that tremendous of a cost and they don't expect to get it back then they'd never even consider porting. Porting it late on Xbox will still cost them the same amount of money and they'd only be LESS LIKELY to get the cost back in sales. Nothing the piece of crap said (yes, I dislike him, I dislike anyone with that many controversies against them that still want to play victim; devs at the studio have spoken out about a culture of racism and sexism, neither of which are tolerable to me) and the entire time he said it he tried to play victim. I don't just raise my eyebrow at that, I blacklist people for it. He's just trying to start something online in the hopes that it'd put him in a better position when asking Microsoft for money. I mean really who even says basically "We may or may not release on XYZ platform at launch because idk money reasons, but don't worry we'll launch everywhere eventually even though those vague money reasons won't change between now and then and we'd only be less likely to make money with a late launch on XYZ platform. But anyway we'll talk with the company that owns XYZ platform to see what makes sense." For one, there's no real concrete information in those posts and for two that doesn't make any sense. "It's taking us longer to optimize for a weaker hardware SKU we can't brute force as much." at least sounds realistic. Better done when you slap on an apology to the actual gamers. That sounds like something a business person selling a product would do if forced to because they have deadlines to meet and can't optimize their game as much as possible before launch (and as we saw with Black Myth Wukong and Baldur's Gate 3 both games sold fantastically, but were clearly missing technical optimization and Baldur's Gate 3 got a huge performance and optimization boost on all platforms when it launched on Xbox. I'm saying that to say it made sense financially to cut corners and force the game out and it paid off; that's not the situation this game is presenting). Call me a cynic, but everything here smells like BS, and I have an inclination to think my nose is right when I literally only see this game, this studio, and this CEO specifically pop up when it's about their BS these days. Ori was a LONG time ago and even then this studio was coming out with reports about all the toxicity in the workplace that came directly from the Co studio founders and CEOs.

@Millionski I'm just saying 1) Xbox missed out on those level of games before and it's happening far, far less now. I'm not saying it doesn't happen at all and console sales (user install base) doesn't matter, but I do raise a big eyebrow at the idea that this is specifically a sign that Xbox is on its own to the graveyard. Like logically the fact that it happens less now than it did in previous generations, suggests that this is the least bleak Xbox's future has looked (at least purely in terms of third party support) and it's the least dead Xbox has been (at least purely in terms of third party support).

And 2) Lmao, I do not categorize this specific game and this specific dev with Baldur's Gate 3. Maybe with Black Myth Wukong but even that game was at least overrated. No Rest for the Wicked is very suitably rated with everyone already noting it's nothing revolutionary. Heck, this same CEO has already cried about how the Steam reviews not being good could nuke the game and studio. In addition to that this CEO is very vocal on social media with a very clear personality and stance towards Xbox and gamers in general. I just don't buy that this guy specifically is skipping Xbox over something as vague as "market conditions" especially not when he continues to engage with people online like a victim and snaps against consumers. If he could at least act mature and like a respectable person selling a product then I might buy it. Literally it'd just be a single neutral sounding post with an apology to Xbox gamers then. But that isn't the case. Instead there's a vague claim made, he plays victim and calls gamers that were actually willing to buy his game (though that was their first mistake) entitled, and then says "we'll discuss with Microsoft what makes sense." And that's what the guy is actually looking for. Trying to stir up something online in the hopes that Microsoft pulls out their checkbook for this galaxy breaking game that's blowing up Steam in early access (wait). Because Microsoft doesn't control the vague "market conditions" he's talking about. If it's about console unit sales or install base then Microsoft isn't in the conversation. If any of that were actually the reason behind this game "maybe" skipping Xbox then it'd only come to Xbox once the studio thinks it would sell well enough, which umm, yeah I mean you'd probably be the first to say that Microsoft isn't going to suddenly sell another 30 million Xbox's in a single year. And we all know that games that come late face an uphill battle on a new platform. So even saying it'd "eventually come to all platforms" DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. In that reality, the studio would make an Xbox port they don't think will make enough money back as what? A charity service? Do we believe studios are charities?

@HardRockGamer No, I was just saying the "crap fest of Microtransactions" greatly predates Black Ops 6. Nicki Minaj was a skin in one of the reboot modern warfare games. (apparently MW2 so a few years ago, and there were tons of Microtransactions before then too). I remember like 10 years ago when Activision announced that over half of all the money they made was through Microtransactions 🤑. They aren't slowing down. All things considered, I'm glad you can enjoy the campaign.

@Gamecuber I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying that's a failure on both consoles' end and now they've both raised the white flag. I mean, how popular would smartphones be if all they could still do is make phone calls? The PS3's problems with sales were, I mean there's a few confounding variables there aside from the Blu ray player (the price). And then in the following generation Microsoft acknowledged this issue with the Xbox One, they executed an idiotic strategy and blamed the ideal end goal, and now they've given up. And what are we left with? The PS4 dominated over the Xbox One in terms of sales, but it also revealed that consoles aren't really reaching new audiences as over the ending PS4 sales... aren't really that great. The same can be seen with this generation and it's really eating into the industry. Revenue is higher but profit margins aren't and consoles have stopped being a "gateway" into gaming, as they're now just a specific product that specific people (the same people) buy. And really the lack of new blood is at the root of the problems we keep seeing in the gaming industry.

@Cakefish Okay, I'm curious, why? If I was all in on PC, I'd never give console a second thought anymore. There's not even a real question of exclusives there at this point. Like Nintendo, I guess, but I don't play my switch now and heck PC has more Nintendo exclusives than a Nintendo Switch due to emulation. I like gaming on my Xbox because it feels the best and because it's where I feel the most future proofed in my library, but if I hadn't been a primarily console gamer every generation since I was born then that probably wouldn't be the case. Like I made this comment somewhere else but before Xbox backwards compatibility, Xbox Play Anywhere, and Xbox game pass, I was fed up with consoles and ready to quit gaming as a result. I hated exclusives and the idea of paying for the privelege to buy a game and that I couldn't play everything with all my friends. I hated that somehow in the late 2010s consoles and gaming hadn't cracked cross progression across the board. I was looking at everything else I owned (my iPad and Netflix and everything) and consoles just felt so closed off and so anticonsumer it was making playing games not fun. The Xbox One and PS4 just nuked my library on both consoles and that was my first time really experiencing that these devices weren't even loyal to the purchases I made within their ecosystem as they pushed harder for digital. Nintendo flaunts the middle finger even more. Xbox in that post 2015ish era was my first experience of gaming not being some platform corraling me off to bleed me dry all while giving me the middle finger. But if I had been on PC that would've meant nothing to me because it's not the case there. I see myself staying primarily Xbox and PC and I've LOVED this generation where more games than ever have come over to Xbox and there's been some nice adoption of Xbox Play Anywhere. But really if you're primarily PC these are all kiddie bones? Like PS and Nintendo and Xbox are a joke to PC in terms of pro-consumer, the control you have over your library, the longevity of said library, and available games overall. I couldn't imagine switching down. Maybe for the user experience? But it sounds like you've had a long time to get used to PC.

@DarthAmmii Trust me, you do not want the market to crash. As a consumer, it really doesn't need to be that deep. Take a break from being online and the news cycle if it's causing you that much frustration. I'm just being honest here. The internet as is today exists to farm and cultivate negativity. For every story like this that's of a game failure, there's a dozen more games popping out that no one talks about. I mean ask yourself really, do you care that Splitgate 2 crashed out? Were you even playing Splitgate 2? If you were was it such a massive draw for your time that you'll die without it? The problem these games are facing is that there's too many games on the market and economically that becomes an issue when there's only so many of us gamers. But that's THEIR problem, not ours. The most this is a problem for us is in how loaded with shovelware ever game store is now. Regardless, I'll always recommend against asking for the entire industry, or specifically the console market, to crash. That'd lead to a LOT of people losing their jobs (not thousands but millions) and publishers not just going under but taking their IP with them (with how write offs and liquidation works some franchises could literally become legally banished to the nether realms). It'd take the industry decades to recover. And it'd still never, EVER go back to how to was in the before times. I mean you can historically look at other market crashes and major industry shake ups. Those don't make things all sunshine and rainbows; they're more like a really forceful push into the next iteration of consumer spending habits and investment habits.

@nomither6 And to this point 1) a market crash would do the opposite of bring those games back and 2) all those games already exist. Like not as in they existed in the 360 era, as in they keep releasing in droves now. I swear I see "Xbox 360 game" to describe every other release these days. Again, the issue with gaming now is that there are too many games. But if you look beyond the inevitable failures as a result of that, there's never been a better time to just be a consumer looking for a game to buy and play. If you just want a single player experience that feels like a 360 era game then you have a whole host of games from AAA publishers, AA publishers, and especially indie devs. Heck, how many Xbox first party games this year alone fit that bill? Avowed, Tony Hawk, and Towerborne. If none of Xbox's titles suit you, Fall of Avalon is basically just the 360 Oblivion or Skyrim. These games exist and some do very well. The issue is that there's too many games and that will inevitably lead to failure. I think there's a lot of merit in discussing why these failures are happening. But we're inviting a LOT of danger if we start taking frustration of seeing these inevitable failures online out on everything and blind ourselves to everything else. There's more games than ever and more games that fit the bill you're defining than ever, but most of those aren't going to get an article on any website or post on reddit or whatever. The internet and social media is geared toward negativity: it likes to track, document, and profit from our failures.

"Bit off more than we could chew" isn't an accurate assessment. Splitgate 2 is a rare case where I'd say the game launched with too much. It had a clear identity and marketed itself well to a clear audience, but then it bloated itself while literally wearing a "make FPS great again" cap. All the slop watered the game down. Eventually if you throw everything into a pot, the soup just tastes like dishwater. What's really tragic is games don't really recover from going back to beta. Like that's kinda a nonsense sentence. Just ask Multiversus. The game doesn't even need to do more testing or tweaking of features, it needs to go back in time and launch as it was. They can gradually add stuff like a big battle royale or whatever, but the game should've focused on the core arena shooter experience that got it on the map. And that core experience was good. Why they sloshed it down is, well I understand why. I can imagine it's scary not to chase trends in the current market with all this over saturation. Still, like many others it was their undoing. And that sucks because this game and its devs were initially a shining knight riding in to kick AAA shooters off their high horse.

@HardRockGamer Did you miss Nicki Minaj? This is just the gaming industry we've made for ourselves. Blame fortnite. Or kids. Or both. Or shareholders. Especially shareholders.

Man, I was worried October would be a cough battlefield cough with all the Xbox first party releases there.

I remember when Antstream arcade first got taken off Xbox (or something like that) and announced talks to return after hammering out the legalities with Microsoft. Then I remember when they first did (I bought the lifetime version) and now here we are with the huge retro classics. Those must've been some good talks.

@matmom42 This is something that needs to be tackled with copyright and IP as a whole. There's movies and TV shows that get made into tax right offs and go into the shadow realm as a result. But at minimum those movies and shows should become public domain or freely available for anyone to watch at any time. It should be the same when games are shut down. Communities will come together and put in the work to make them work, just make it possible. The fact that publishers are allowed to banish these games to the shadow realm and then threaten litigation against fan communities who put in the time, money, and effort to bring these games back online FOR FREE (or only those who own the game often) is the problem. Let gamers game for crying out loud.

I find it hard to believe the industry is working on something that they are actively encouraged to not care about and can even make money from. The reason the petition exists and this has become an issue is because the systems that are in place benefit the powers that be not supporting games long term. EULAs and copyright law has changed that much in 30 years, but the internet has given corporations insane power over video games and any digital product. Nintendo can remotely brick your hardware whenever they feel like it. The reason doesn't matter, that's an insane level of power for a company to have over hardware an individual paid for and purchased. Games through updates can be entirely different. The Overwatch game I paid for years ago doesn't exist anymore even by name. The only real hope is for governments to step in and provide consumers with proper protection and rights.

@NavalHistorian I just want to add that as far as I can tell @Recaffinator didn't say it was okay that Sony did it too. They can both be wrong. I think the real point here is that Xbox is giving up on being a home entertainment system and that's a real shame. The original Xbox was pitched as Microsoft winning the war for our living rooms and 24 years later they've all but waved the white flag. Sony has too. Stepping outside of our console bubble, Playstation and Xbox has let themselves become niche relics. People use their smart tvs, Apple TVs, fire TVs, Roku's, or even smartphones as their central home entertainment device. And that's significant because Xbox and PlayStation have clearly NOT been reaching larger new audiences while only selling themselves as specialized gaming hardware. Yes, the Xbox One launch was awful, but Microsoft was right in their data that console sales had peaked and the war for the living room had expanded far beyond the pure gaming console. Heck, one could argue that it was never just about the pure gaming console. The PS2 only sold as well as it did because some people wanted it as a reasonably priced good dvd player to watch movies on. Now they've entirely turned that functionality over to Amazon, Apple, Google, and whatever other media company. Microsoft and Sony should've worked to expand their services, but instead gave up. As a result their hardware just fundamentally offers less value and more and more that becomes an issue. It isn't just PCs, but fire TVs can stream games through Luna and XCloud and I think Nvidia GFN, Apple has Apple arcade and fortnite and even assassin's creed marriage and RE village and whatever else as their M chips improve, and even Netflix has dipped into gaming (they just poached an Xbox game director to help). Meanwhile the actual gaming platforms are just cutting features and closing themselves off from new audiences.

Way back when Microsoft pulled out those charts to show Xbox Game Pass subs spending more time AND money on Xbox I'm pretty sure that was just me. Game Pass and the Xbox Play Anywhere sparked my interest in gaming at a time when I nearly stopped the hobby entirely. The PS4 and Xbox One's initial library nuke nearly murdered my interest and gaming, and I was getting fed up with how anticonsumer all three were especially Nintendo. I can't even imagine buying a game on PS or Nintendo ever again and nearly Xbox too (and with that I'd have stopped gaming because I wasn't into PC at the time). Now, I don't even want to think about how much I spend on Xbox yearly at this point. If it's a play anywhere title it's become like second nature to buy at this point. The way I see game pass when it comes to buying game is it just deprioritizes buying certain games for a certain time, and as such the money I would've spent on that game is freed up to go to another game. So Xbox is eating big off of me. I'm paying for game pass and using monkey logic to excuse paying for more new games on top of that. And then I'll also convince myself to buy games that are leaving for the GP discount (especially if it's a $20 or cheaper game).

Honestly, I'd be surprised if EA Play leaves. This isn't Ubisoft+ or even the highest EA tier, EA play is just a $5 (maybe $6 now) a month service. I think it's cheaper than Xbox Game Pass Core. EA probably gets more money from Microsoft than they do from EA Play by itself. Not to mention the cloud service and getting everyone on PC Game Pass to use the EA launcher. I only see it leaving if EA restructures their subscription entirely and significantly raise the price of EA Play to $10 a month (which they could citing inflation or the amount of games; the service does just naturally have more games each year). Xbox Game Pass Ultimate could also now survive without EA Play if they just dumped all the ABK games in there (which maybe that's a hold up, maybe EA doesn't want COD flooding GP. IIRC it's EA that stopped the family plan).

I have it on my dashboard and it's really neat. It's actually not just cloud or PC, it's everything. A small little tile on the far right and if you click it your entire Xbox play history comes up. It has when I last played every single game, what device I played it on, and the exact date and time I played it. Even if only played on console this would be super useful. I imagine it'd also be useful for someone who plays on multiple consoles.

Now if Microsoft could just get off their butts and add some type of cloud save indicator. We keep tip toeing around this one basic feature. If you can tell me where I last played then you can have a popup to tell me when the cloud save upload is done and I can close the game safely!

@NeoRatt I think it all works out in an ideal world, but I'm not sure we'll get there in reality. Even in the best case scenario I'd see Xbox going the way of surface in that there's just left on the wayside and becomes a joke. And then all we're left with are PC gaming OEMs, and I don't expect those to have the price and optimization of a traditional console.

Microsoft could very well enjoy gains becoming basically tencent but with ownership of windows. But they also become heavily reliant on all the other players (steam and hardware manufacturers for example) to keep playing ball. This is the problem Microsoft has right now with mobile. They gave up control over that markert (didn't even really try) and now their mobile aspirations are non-existent because they are completely at the mercy of Google and Apple. This is the problem with windows PCs now where they have to service so many different types of hardware and support so much legacy software that the entire OS just becomes a bloated mess. I don't want that for Xbox. And maybe that wouldn't be the case, but I have to say I just don't know.

But eh, we're talking in circles about things we can't really know. I'll say the only reason I'm even gaming these days is Xbox Play Anywhere and the vision Xbox painted for me way back in 2016 of my games everywhere. I want them to succeed here: let's just say your cautiously optimistic and I'm optimistically cynical here. Honestly for me the issue right now is cost and that's what I'm least sure they'll have worked out if they go full PC.

@Cakefish How'd you survive the OG Xbox, 360, and one eras my guy? Xbox factually has better third party support than ever this gen. I'd certainly not let myself get exhausted out by this victim card playing toxic jerk. If anything "news" websites need to call out his tweets for the BS they are and put more pressure on him for all the controversies moon studios has been involved with. Like at least save this comment for something and/or someone respectable.

Edit: I know it falls on deaf ears every single time, but I still have to say that factually Xbox has more third party game support now than ever. For every game that skips or delays it's release on Xbox, another 10 that have previously (as in across 3 generations) never launched on Xbox are doing so on DAY ONE. Xbox has more games than ever and there are less exclusive third party games than ever. Factually this has been Xbox's strongest generation when it comes to pure game support. This particular CEO victim farming about this particular game not being on Xbox for vague "market conditions" doesn't change that. This is the same guy that was begging for positive reviews on Steam and blamed "WOKE culture" and "DEI politics" for negative ratings.

Okay. I was already going to skip this game solely due to the controversies surrounding the studio, its head, and how devs have been treated. I was just given another reason to. This CEO continues to be exactly the type of person I've come to expect. I first learned the name Thomas Mahler when it came to how toxic Moon studios is run with racism and sexism and power harassment issues. The literal only reason I know No Rest for the Wicked EXISTS is because of the constant controversies that come up with this game. And the CEO is always playing victim.

To anyone taking this on either extreme, I'd like to remind people to check the person in question making these comments. I mean first off, even if it is the case that you can't afford to release on a platform, that's not something you say at this stage in development and in such a public way. This post literally just exists to throw shade on Xbox and farm clout. Personally the way I see it Considering how similar PC, Xbox, and PS are now, how this game is far from a Baldur's Gate or Black Myth Stress test, and everything this guy has openly said online, yeah I don't buy that BS market conditions excuse. Other publishers are explaining how it makes no financial sense not to release everywhere all at once, and yet for these guys specifically it'd kill their coffers? What is Microsoft money hatting every single third party game that's come to Xbox at launch EXCEPT this specific indie game? I don't buy it. The game is already in early access on Steam, it's not like they have no money to work with (if it's selling well enough in the first place). Really what wouldn't make financial sense based on market conditions is a staggered release. Reviews have already hurt this game and day one sales. They might as well never release on Xbox if they push it back, people won't flock to buy a months to year old game that they've already heard extensively isn't that good. Just ask Final Fantasy 16.

@Kaloudz @NeoRatt
However, it really does seem like Microsoft just wants one platform and for that to become PC and that's where I, if I can get opinionated, think they'll fly too close to the sun. It is true consoles have an issue growing now across all platforms, but there could be an effort put in to introduce consoles to more audiences. I had always thought the Series S in particular should have been better positioned and marketed to introduce brand new gamers. But either way I don't think completing collapsing console and PC on top of each other is the answer. What Microsoft really risks here is losing the control they currently have (Microsoft doesn't really have any control over the PC gaming market despite Windows being the primary platform) and consumers risk losing a budget optimized experience. Actual Microsoft made Xbox hardware could just become the new Surface: overpriced and mediocre. I think Microsoft is rushing toward a future that doesn't benefit them or us as much as they think it would. Personally I just want them to invest in what they already have, because in my eyes the proof of concept is perfect. If every game launched play anywhere and cloud gaming enabled, and if every windows PC had the option for an Xbox mode that turned off unnecessary windows resources and pulled together everything gaming related on your PC hardware, then I'd at least be golden. And again we already have those things out in the wild (or coming very soon). They just need to push those for now and not chase the pipe dreams that might be more like nightmare scenarios in reality (I really don't think Steam on Xbox will be the holy grail people want it to be, because financially that'll completely upend how consoles operate). But yeah, only time will really tell. I don't think the communication is the big issue now. Microsoft has kinda now screwed themselves if Steam isn't available on the next Xbox console because of the wording of the announcement and nature of the internet. All anyone is talking about is Steam on the next Xbox; they aren't talking about Epic or Battle Net or anything else, just Steam. All the headlines and all the buzz is about Steam on Xbox and they act like it's been confirmed. They'll disappoint a LOT of people if that isn't the case. But if it is the case they'll have to answer a LOT of questions about the financials, subsidizing hardware, and what to do about game libraries. A lot of people on PC already hate having to use multiple storefronts, and if Steam comes to Xbox how long until some publishers stop skipping the MS store on Xbox like they do on PC? I'm more on the cynical side right now because I think they're pushing too hard and too fast when there's no need to. I mean, this whole thing started with how Xbox Cloud would reconcile it's next Gen upgrades and game compatibility, they should tackle stuff like that first. Push the complete console and PC coalesence off until the next next box or just stop at have a ubiquitous software ecosystem.

@NeoRatt @Kaloudz
Just to add to this the price is a big concern as well. Not that the pricing this generation hasn't already been awful, but the thing with a console is we as consumers accept caveats (more closed ecosystems, specicialized software (limited functionality compared to a PC), paid online, less storefronts, no mods, etc.) and in turn we get a lower priced entry compared to what a PC would cost for similar performance. An Xbox PC wouldn't be able to benefit from any of that. Like the upcoming ASUS ROG Ally it'll be priced like everything else in the PC market that surrounds it, which is expensive. Most console gamers aren't on forums or even YouTube videos seeking performance numbers, most are super casuals who can't even tell name the different resolutions. Paying PC hardware prices is a big ask for them. I think paying the prices Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo are already asking this Gen is a big ask for them. If we're to say console gaming has an issue getting new customers, well it won't help if consoles are just worse PC shells or seen that way.

Me personally, I wouldn't even try converting the Xbox console to a PC. I'd keep doing what Xbox is doing with the ASUS ROG Ally and just extend it to all windows gaming OEMs. Xbox PC in my view should be a windows gaming standard and almost entirely refer to the software side of things: I think it should just be the gaming experience on windows with OEMs still doing the hardware. The traditional Xbox console in my opinion should remain as is. And again all the work be done on the software side with a stronger push (if not a requirement) for every game to be Xbox Play Anywhere. I look at the Microsoft Store now and there's a non-zero number of games launching as Xbox Play Anywhere and cloud enabled without being a part of game pass (largely Japanese and indie titles (off the top of my head Eden's Zero just did this)). That and the upcoming Xbox mode launching with the ASUS Xbox ROG Ally is all I want personally. I want to buy myself a $300 Xbox Series S or $500 Series X, turn it on and get a full optimized home console experience, AND THEN for every game I buy to be a true Xbox play anywhere title with Xbox PC and Xbox Cloud support at launch. I'm more than happy for Xbox on PC to just be Microsoft finally getting their act together with windows gaming and properly optimizing the PC gaming experience under Xbox branding (which I do think all their gaming operations should be encompassed under Xbox).

@Decimateh Aww man the Digimon tomogachi (is that right) toys. I had gotten Digimon Savers/Data Squad versions when I was really young. That was my original handheld 😂

@Fiendish-Beaver Agreed. I think the next iteration of PS and Xbox consoles and especially how they handle the software side of things will set the stage for a drastic change in console gaming. For now things are certainly different from last gen, but not drastically so. Sony also will move very slowly on all of this because of how protective they are of PS as a platform.

@Jaxx420 I see Xbox's perfect Dark situation as a massive leadership failure. That game should not have been allowed to exist in development hell for as long as it did and go through as many internal reboots and massive project leadership changes. The studio was founded in 2018 for God's sake and their only game was still years out as of 2025. I'm genuinely not sure what Matt Booty does and I don't even fully see that as a failure on his part, but Xbox as a studio manager in general. During the Xbox One era they micromanaged the hell out of their studios and got burnt for it. Now they do they opposite and that's great for the Obsidians that have their stuff figured out and are good at what they do, but not for those that need a firm hand. It came out after Redfall and Arkane close that those devs WANTED the Xbox aquistion to result in their project leader being vetoed and the game getting canceled or rebooted. Maybe if that had happened and those resources not wasted, Arkane Austin would still exist. The same goes for the iniative. It's a new studio and it needed a firm hand. I don't think Xbox's layoffs and cancelations are catastrophically worse than what's happening in the industry, but I do also agree accountability needs to be held with leadership. Had the iniative's resources been moved to say Rare and Everwild years ago then we could've at least gotten that game. Or they could've said "Okay shelve perfect Dark for now. You're a new studio. Make a AA game to figure out your style and culture FIRST." Instead they let them bleed money and resources for nearly a decade with no real progress made. And as a result they had to cut off a limb to solve the problem.

@Decimateh Same and I've literally bought cyber sleuth many, MANY times. I bought the original on PS4, hackers memory on PS5, the complete edition on switch, and then the complete edition again on Steam. I've also bought world next order twice. I will stupidly and blindly support Digimon and not even because I'm a fanboy, but because I'm so desperate for Digimon content and I know Bandai doesn't nearly see it as the cash cow that is Pokémon (because of course it's not sales and popularity wise). Never played the OG games so a port or remaster would be amazing. I nearly bought dusk and dawn on DS, but I was a dumb kid who couldn't quite fathom Digimon outside of the cartoon (that I was also sure was America)

@Questionable_Duck See I never even considered Psychonauts 2 an Xbox exclusive because of the crowd funding. I remember hearing at the time that MS just paid for the rest of the game development and marketing and let the studio honor the original crowd funded promises. I saw it as more of an intermediary game than particularly an Xbox game.

@InterceptorAlpha You mentioned nail in the coffin and I took that mean "Xbox killing consoles". I only offered Sony having already done this to say otherwise. Or at least say it's a bigger issue than just Xbox.

However, if you you're just speaking about less value. Oh, man yeah. I literally commented this on the pure Xbox post that brought it up. This is awful. Both consoles are looking to cost more than ever and they're literally taking value away from consumers, wtf? These are supposed to be devices that sit under your living room TV and you can't even buy movies and TV from them anymore?? Man, I miss the Xbox One. It is such a shame Microsoft botched that console so hard because as a result it feels like the entire console market has been on a downward spiral. I also brought up how the biggest games are on everything from tablets to PC, so if you're a kid and you want to play fortnite... why in the world would you buy a console over a freaking iPad? And yeah an iPad can't play all the AAA games (yet), but kids don't really care about that. Games like Fortnite and Roblox and Minecraft are taking up most of the playtime on consoles and earning them the most money anyway. I don't see how consoles can survive if they shove themselves even harder into being niche while also raising prices.

@Kaloudz Those are all really good questions with how Microsoft will handle it. And they can even be extended beyond cloud gaming. Microsoft clearly wants a ubiquitous ecosystem across Windows PC, Xbox Console, and Xbox Cloud and they want Xbox to clearly and plainly mean all of it. But like... how? Xbox Play Anywhere is only a solution for future releases, and even then it's an optional solution they can't force on developers & publishers. Microsoft supports two versions of the Xbox store (one on PC and one consoles) and as a result they service some games twice with different versions they can't easily coalesce. So like really, how? What is Microsoft going to do if they start introducing or moving to PC based cloud gaming servers? What is Microsoft going to do to fully embrace the "Xbox everywhere" idea? Who knows? I'd bet my bottom Microsoft doesn't even fully know and they're also clearly not 100% focused on investing in it (because they're Microsoft and they are massive and AI and Azure are their current cash cows).

I think everything will become a LOT more clear in 2026 and hopefully the vision is fully painted across a canvas by 2027 (though we probably won't be able to touch that canvas for years and the wet paint might never stop drying). The Asus ROG Ally is Xbox's first real push to change the narrative of what an Xbox is and expand it to PC (though they've had a native Xbox PC launcher for 6 years now and Microsoft windows gaming is far older). Microsoft probably sees that as the first real start of their plans and then they'll cascade out from there. I don't really know though. There's so much speculation about what the AMD announcement means and what Xbox is planing and what the next Xbox will even be. We don't know. Like no one really knows. All I can even suspect is that Microsoft is trying to change the game up entirely.

@brettvsgodzilla It's getting new people into gaming. That's what the industry is really struggling with and what the console market especially is suffering from. Without new blood these exuberant development costs lead to all these cuts and layoffs. It's also what makes everything costs more to the existing consumers in the market (not that other market conditions aren't also playing a role). Marketing means so much more than ad campaigns; it means communicating value to consumers. As far as IP is concerned that value requires a multimedia approach to bring in new people that have never even heard of the IP before or who are new to the medium. For example, a really, really good book adaption brings in new readers to that book. Not as many as those that saw the movie, but a good amount and it's significant to the market. Good video game adaptions have the same effect and if properly poised they can really captaialize on the situation. Like if Cyberpunk was still in its launch state when Edgerunners came out then it'd have been game over. But it wasn't. The show made people go back to it or start playing it for the first time at the right time (can't remember if the expansion was already out but it couldn't have been far behind either). As a result it's enjoying a lot of success and in the long term will be remembered fondly. We need a lot more of this in the industry to start to solve all the problems we've gotten due to oversaturization. These things can't just happen, they have to lineup. The fallout TV did good numbers for the mobile game and Fallout 76 and even Fallout 4, but it wasn't a huge boon to Microsoft or the wider industry because there wasn't anything new to do (to buy and play). There wasn't even a big fallout 4 expansion or new anniversary edition. Or heck a remake or remaster or old games. Like when I was writing argumentative essays in university, I was told good arguments end with some imperative statement imploring the reader to do something next in regards to the argument. So let's say I wrote about a bad law, well then I should end by telling readers to go out and speak to their senators. Well, Fallout made a great TV show and then didn't even have senators for you to talk to. They obviously shouldn't have ended by telling people to buy XYZ game (though a "based on XYZ game" does effectively do that and again Microsoft collabing with Amazon on GP deals or fallout game deals does that too), but they definitely needed something to go to. Cyberpunk Edgerunners worked so well because after watching the show you could hop into a stable game and get hyped for (or if it was already out just play) the new expansion and major gameplay overhaul.

@Ilyn My concern is what those price points will be if it's one SKU. If the all digital PS5 Pro costs $700 are we really looking at a launch price of $800 or $750 with a disc drive bundle and $700 without for the PS6 and next Xbox before taxes? Even $700 and $600 would be wild. Last gen the Xbox One was dead on arrival charging $500 and now we're looking at base models being $700? This just isn't what I want from a device I want sitting in front of my TV to casually play games on after work. Gaming is an enterainment hobby for me and one that's already incredibly expensive (buying a solid TV/monitor, internet, games, and the hardware (a console)). Yet now even a Switch 2 launches at nearly $500 (actually $500 if you want the $80 game or either way with standard tax). I'm very happy with a lower SKU for a budget device that accomplishes playing games. From how the internet has reacted to it, I don't expect Microsoft to go down that route again, but boy will I be sad that they won't.