LogicStrikesAgain

@Moby

except the parent company MS hasn't subsidized the gaming division since the 360. Sony

Microsoft absolutely has subsidized their Xbox branch when they backed them with $76.7B to buy two of the biggest publishers in gaming. That’s not something Xbox was able to do on its own.

This also perfectly shows the contrast in financial power between these two companies. It’s why Day One on Game Pass might be a more sustainable bet for Xbox because they know they have the backing of a large $3 trillion giant like Microsoft, but not be a safe bet for Playstation because a 20x smaller company like Sony can’t offer the same financial insulation.

Sony could easily add its own IPs day 1 to PSN. They choose not to purely put out of greed.

Maybe they could, but not at the current $14/ month it costs now, and not without a much larger subscriber base. If they do it now, it would definitely impact their financials. And taking risks like that is much more dangerous for a $150B company than $3 trillion one.

They choose not to purely put out of greed. Now if you want to discuss how their fixation on exclusives is actually hurting them now, we can.

Honestly, i’d like to, but when you frame it as “pure greed” it already sounds like a very one sided view. Before i give my take, lets me offer a bit of nuance.

Every company is driven to make profit, so greed exists in every company, whether that’s Sony or Microsoft. Let’s not think that Microsoft became (one of) the richest companies in the world by being altruistic and unselfish. They’ve faced multiple monopoly accusation over the years, it’s not like they are entirely clean here.

If we can avoid sweeping generalizations like that, and acknowledge that both sides make strategic (self serving) decisions, id be happy to discuss this.

So here’s my take:

I’d say Sony’s exclusives are a huge pillar of their business model. It’s what helps create their brand value. It’s why people keep investing in to the Playstation ecosystem.

A large part of their revenue is the cut they make off third party sales on their platform. And that only works if people stay in their ecosystem.

Could they make more money if they put their games everywhere? Sure, but that would only boost revenue on the short term. But that could also weaken their brand and identity. And if they lose that exclusivity edge, they might erode that what makes them stand out as a platform and might ultimately lose market share where they make the most profit, through third party sales.

I’m sure they’ve done the math and considered it, but maybe concluded that going full multiplat might not be a sustainable and safe business model for them on the long term. At least for the moment, because of course everything can change in business

@Millionski I didn’t actually say they’re not sustainable though. So no math needed there. I said: “And by the looks of it, it doesn’t seem all that sustainable for Xbox either”, i was trying to be nuanced, not make a definitive statement. Because you’re right, i dont know for sure whether it is or not.

Why it seems that way to me? Because they’ve totally given up their exclusive games, even their core trio of franchises. It didn’t seem like a voluntary move, especially since a large part of their user base was very disappointed with it. It feels like something they had to, to broaden their reach and justify the costs.

Phil said twice (2022 and 2024) its a sustainable model

Games costs hundreds of millions to develop. Maybe at the time it was sustainable, because they projected a large increase in subscribers and their output was lower.

But now, if they have a subscriber base of around 35M, and that growth starts to stall? I don’t think that would be sustainable on the long term. Especially if you look at the costs of all those games they are expected to put on their service. Again to be clear, this is all just speculation.

On the other hand, Sony has just outright said that for them it just isn’t sustainable. Even if Microsoft hasn’t said that, it looks as though behind the scenes they are trying to come up with answer. We all know they projected like 100M subscribers before 2030 or something. And they did say that if they didn’t reach a certain amount before 2026 they would consider it a failure or something, paraphrasing here, but it was something they said during the FTC trials

@Ernie

No, I said AA games not indie games.

Those terms aren’t mutually exclusive though. “AA” games refer to production levels and scope of a game. “Indie” refers to independent studios. But indies can definitely be AA, or even AAA, depending on the budget and scope of it. Many of the games i listed are definitely AA games. If you think they don’t qualify, i’d genuinely like to know why. What’s your definition of AA?

OK, so what do you think Sony are spending all those multi millions of subscribers money on?

As for how Sony spends the subscription revenue. I think it’s mostly similar to Xbox. The bulk would go to things like ongoing infrastructure maintenance, servers, licensing of classics, adding third part games, marketing, cloud gaming etc.

However you have to keep in mind that bevause their service cost less, their revenue is also lower than Game Pass. But they might even spend more on things like infrastructure and servers because ultimately more users use their service.

Also, the revenue they got from the service doesn't have to be reinvested in the service. It can be used to invest in ongoing development of AAA first party titles for example.

Sony said going Day One on first party titles is not a sustainable model for them. And by the looks of it, it doesn’t seem all that sustainable for Xbox either. But being a far richer company, they can take those financial hits. They’re locked in to that model now, they can’t just reverse that decision anymore. People would go berserk.

Sony can reinvest their revenue in other ways, like their own game development, it doesnt have to follow Microsofts approach. What works for a $3 trillion company might not be the smart thing for a $150B company to do.

People would like Sony to do the same thing Microsoft does, but they just can’t. Not every company can make the same financial decisions as (one of) the richest company in the world. Sony not doing Day One is maybe one of the smartest choice they’re making for their business right now, based on their financial reality.

But yeah, going back to the AA question. maybe if you could explain how those aren’t AA games, i’d genuinely like to hear your take

@Ernie

What excuse is there for Sony not to include some First day releases of 'AA' games to Premium?

Because putting games Day One on subscription services eats in to sales. Sony can’t afford those hits. Especially since Sony’s games cost hundreds of millions to develop.

People keep comparing a $150B company to a $3 trillion tech company. Sony can’t make the same financial decisions as a Microsoft. People almost never take in to account the financial realities of these two companies.

Edit: Sorry i misread ur post. You were talking about AA games. They do actually include day one AA releases (some of them have even been very successful) like:

• Sword of the Sea (upcoming)
• Blue Prince
• FBC Firebreak
• The Plucky Squire
• Fall Guys
• Rocket League
• Animal Well
• Humanity
• Foamstars
• Tales of Kenzaru
• Sea of Stars
• Oddworld: Soulstorm
• Bugsnax
• Destruction All stars
• Stray
• Tchia
• Harry Potter: Quidditch etc.

There’s more, but these are some of the more notable ones

@crackeastwood2 @Kieduss Come on guys. We’re better than all this console war nonsense 😅🎮🤝🏼

Again i’ll say, if they put Steam on their next console, they will have effectively chosen to be fully focused on publishing, in stead of platform control. Which is not bad, but just something they will have to carefully consider.

Steam will eat up most if not all of the revenue of third party game sales, andthey would have zero control on that store. It would be a Steam machine with access to Game Pass. But on the other hand, it might just be the only smart play they have left, seeing as a console without those other stores might really struggle.

However there are rumours saying that AMD is just cooking up SoC chips for this next Xbox, and it might not be PC architecture at all

@Questionable_Duck Fair enough, but that’s a different context. The context i mean is that the people asking for ports from Square Enix aren’t necessarily the majority of the user base, it’s a minority

@Fiendish-Beaver It’s because they’re basically going full third party with this move. They don’t mind if Steam eats up their 30% cut anymore.

They can’t go full Xbox PC without Steam on it, because they know it won’t sell. So they’re choosing the third party route. Which i think is probably the smartest play they have left.

It’ll at least be a Game Pass machine for some people. For the rest it’ll be a Steam machine, and Xbox won’t see any revenue (except for Xbox titles of course) or have any control over Steam, that belongs to Valve.

I guess there aren’t many viable options left for Xbox, so this is a solid way to stay in the game. Even if Steam will eat up much of their revenue

@Kaloudz Haha, fair enough! 👍🏼

I do scratch my head though - so many trolls across so many sites spent so many years saying so many Xbox games were rubbish...

@Kaloudz Those trolls aren’t representative for the whole user base though. They’re just a loud minority. Like people always asking here when Square Enix is finally going to put its major titles on Xbox, and when they finally do, hardly anyone buys them. It’s because voices on these sites are only representing a small hardcore demographic

5 years ago: « Xbox games are poop »
Now: « POOP ME UP, DADDY! »
eyeroll

@Sindayl As previously pointed out by someone else in a comment above. Most PS users have always regarded Xbox top franchises as good games. It wasn’t these games those trolls were referring to 5 years ago, it was more about xbox not having much else back then, besides these games. This was of course before they bought all those IP’s and studios starting 4 years ago

for what’s essentially a remaster of a 20-year-old game

Sure, but it’s new to Playstation gamers. And that’s quite the understatement, isn’t this supposed to be one of the best Xbox first party titles of ALL time, this almost makes it sound like it’s just some random game 😅

@Sol4ris I don’t mean to bum anyone out man. All my speculations are just some random guys thoughts. I dont necessarily want to see Xbox just be a publisher. But in my mind, if they do launch their next gen box with Steam on it, knowing full well people are going to prefer that store, it’s effectively as if they have chosen to be ok with being a third party publisher at that point. Because they have zero control and get zero revenue from Steam, that all goes to Valve. So effectively it would be a Steam machine.

But, i’m not saying this is how it goes. Nor am i saying that Xbox cares if they do go this route. Maybe they're banking on the fact that having Steam on it will prove so popular that people will massively buy it. And they’d be happy to sacrifice their store and 30% cut, just to stay in the game and hope for an uptick in Game Pas

@BAMozzy Look, I love your passion man, but you’re kinda all over the place. I get how great Xbox is and all. However, I’m not talking about their overall strategy and how they want Xbox games to be everywhere.

I’m just speculating about what this next box might be, and how they’ll approach it. And whether it’ll be a Xbox PC store or a hybrid Steam/Xbox PC. And i’m just giving my 2 cents on how i think those options might play out, that’s all

@BAMozzy Ok, i edited my comment a bit. What i meant was, i don’t understand how next gen hardware is going save their hardware division. Is that clearer? That’s what this article is also about right? About them potentially releasing their next gen hardware sooner.

I was just speculating about what their next box will be, and how that might pan out

@Sol4ris I understand. I think i was speculating on precisely that. A pivot towards a PC in a box strategy.

Which is either going full Xbox PC store or going Steam/Xbox PC hybrid. These might be the only viable choices they have now, but both come with certain caveats which i touch upon in previous posts

@Sol4ris Their hardware division needs saving yes. I’m sure if they are developing and releasing a next gen box they would want people to buy it.

I’m only thinking out loud about the possibilities of the directions they might take.

I never said i wanted them go the full third part publishing route. I’m saying maybe thats the only option they have. There’s a subtle difference

@awp69 Exactly, thats what i meant.

So they either go full Xbox PC with their next console, which would make it a true next gen Xbox. But they’d have to have exclusives to succeed (in my opinion as an armchair ceo)

Or they go the Steam/Xbox PC route, in which case i’d consider them to have given up on their store as the central pillar. And at that point, they’ll effectively have gone full third party. The hardware would be the same as a ROG Xbox Ally. A Steam machine with an Xbox button on it.

Which again, is just maybe the only viable option they have left to stay in the game. I just don’t see Xbox PC competing with Steam. They won’t see the numbers they want because everyone will buy their games through Steam.

But hey only time will tell. I bet they released this ASUS device to gauge if people will even buy through their Xbox PC store or just continue buying through Steam

I don’t understand how next gen hardware is supposed to save their hardware division. As i’ve said before, unless they pivot back to exclusive content, i don’t even see the point of it thb.

Are people all of a sudden magically going to start buying Xbox’s again?

And even if they go full Xbox PC, i dont think they’ll be able to easily compete with Steam. Unless their next gen hardware is just like the ROG Xbox Ally with Steam loaded alongside it. In that case i’d consider Xbox to have just given up on putting their storefront on the main stage and fully have gone third party.

Ideally, to make a chance they’d have to move back to exclusivity. However they might have lost too much ground already to compete in the high end console space. So maybe going full third party PC is actually the best choice moving forward

@elpardo1984 Yeah i think you’re right. They just want to be everywhere, whatever hardware that may be.

But i meant, on this specific device, if they put both Steam and Xbox pc store on it, they will be competing for sales with Steam.

Not necessarily trying to be top dog. But with every game someone wants to purchase, they’ll be looking at both stores and will have to decide which one to choose. If they Pick Steam, Xbox doesnt get a cut.

So they will be competing in a way, to get people to buy from them. But thats just an if, we dont know what they are planning. Lets wait and see how they approach this on sunday

@Millionski Oh, that’s what you mean. Yes, maybe they worked something like that out. But that would only work for Xbox titles then. Which might be only 2% of Steams total library. Xbox would still get $0 for every non Xbox title sold through Steam.

No need to speculate long about it though, we’ll know exactly how theyre gonna do it soon enough. Excited for the showcase!

@Millionski I can definitely see them doing both those things. Interested to hear more about it. Although getting a fee from Steam might be troublesome, i wonder if that happened before, and how that would work.
And it begs the question, would Steam get a cut whenever a sale goes through the Xbox PC store?

But maybe they did make a deal, it would definitely be a good move if they’ve managed to arrange something like that

@Millionski Congrats with the Switch 2 man, hope u enjoy it!

@BAMozzy Just to clarify, i’m not super knowledgable about all of it. I’m just trying to piece things together on what they might do. I dont wanna claim anything with certainty.

Having said that, i do think saying “Steam doesnt dominate the PC space” is a bit of a stretch. Steam is by far the largest platform on PC, even if some games like CoD have fewer players on it compared to other platforms.

I get that your enthousiasm for Xbox, and i’m not against that at all. I’m just curious how they’ll position this handheld, especially when it comes to storefronts. That’s where my questions come from, just thinking out loud how certain scenarios might play out

• So either they only put Steam on it, and get no platform fees.
• Or put Steam and Xbox PC on it, so they could make some money throught their store, but then they’d have to compete for sales with Steam, and i’m curious to see how they’d approach something like that.
• Or they only put Xbox PC store on it, which would be a crazy high risk gamble, but might work
• Or option D, which is also very plausible, i’m just way off here and need some sleep.

All in all, pretty excited to hear more about it. Even if i’m still not interested in this handheld

@BAMozzy

Steam isn't the ONLY choice on PC

I understand, that’s why i also mentioned Epic Games. But what i meant was,i’m wondering if they planning to compete more directly with Steam on this device, using their own store.

Because Epic tried hard to compete with their store, even lowering platform fees to like 12% or something, and giving away games. But Steam still dominates the PC space, showing how big of a challenge it is to compete.

Thats why i raise those questions, if they are going to compete more directly, how will they do that?

And i guess you give some solid answers like consolidating Battlenet etc.

Fortunately we wont have to speculate long until we find out more sunday

Does this mean they are going to try and compete with Steam more directly, through their own store? It would circumvent the question marks i had, about how they’d make money with this Asus handheld.

But it would also be very ambitious, trying to take on Steam. Aren’t PC players like very loyal to that platform? Just ask Epic Games, even with their Fortnite money it’s really difficult to get a strong foothold in the space.

What about attracting publishers? How do they plan to compete with Steam? Lower platform fees?

So many questions, and maybe i’m way off here. But i guess we’ll find out more sunday. Excited for the showcase!

@Millionski

Do you understand definition of 1st party?

Actually, Former Playstation boss Shuhei Yoshida recently gave the definition of what they consider first party at Sony. There was an article on it a while ago on Push Square. This is the exact quote from that article stating what the definition is:

First-party
A game published and fully funded by Sony. Usually owns the IP.

I’d say Death Stranding 2 and Lost Soul Aside fit perfectly well within that definition

@Millionski Hypothetically, if Death Stranding 2 and Lost Soul Aside weren’t first party you’d still have 4 compared to 8. MLB, Days Gone remastered, Marathon and Ghost of Yotei. That’s not a bad output considering Xbox has like double the studios now.

But again, i dont understand what the point is in comparing first party output. Both consoles are now getting Xbox first party so it doesn’t really mean anything anymore.

From now on it’s safe to say, Xbox will probably always have the larger output, that’s basically what the largest buyout in gaming will get you.

However in the context of comparing it to Sony, it’s become meaningless. It used to be a sport to see which platform has the best exclusive games or IPs, but obviously there’s no point in doing that anymore

@FraserG I think Sword of the Sea is exclusive as well.

Edit: Apparently, Cairn and Hirogami are as well

@Millionski

oh now it starts dont count this or that.

Ironically you started moving goalposts by saying games like Death Stranding 2 don’t count, while i’m sure Sony themselves consider it first party. However you do count THPS 3+4 which was done by Iron Galaxy, and originally developed by Neversoft, both studios not owned by MS.

Some Xbox users are creating a fake narrative that somehow Playstation dont have games, because their first party output is having a lull (which is true)

However Playstation gamers dont only play first party games. And the only reason you focus on first party is because Xbox now has a huge output after acquiring 15+ extra studios. But games count whether they are first party or third party.

Focusing only on first party output totally ignores all the great games Playstation are getting like Final Fantasy Rebirth, Pacific Drive, Granblue Fantasy, Helldivers 2, Stellar Blade, Silent Hill 2, Midnight Walk, Towers of Aghasba, Black Myth Wukong, Sword of the Sea, Death Stranding 2, Lost Soul Aside, Ghost of Yotei, Phantom Blade Zero and more.

I’m glad Xbox finally has a large output now, but you guys need to stop worrying whether Playstation gamers are eating, cause we are stuffed 😂

@Rog-X Do you mean this year alone? Or the generation so far? Because Playstations exclusive first party output is obviously way more than Xbox’s

@Rog-X Did you say exclusive first party output? I don’t think you want to compare Sony exclusive first party to Xbox’s

They're great games and despite what a few trolls say, Xbox has games and they clearly do well cross platform

No ones saying that. They used to say that when Xbox actually did have a dry spell in output. Remember when they had a lull around ‘21/‘22?

Obviously Xbox has games, they just acquired like 15+ extra studios. Would be kind of embarassing if they didn’t lead in output. On top of that they’re rereleasing older titles to PS. No one’s trolling the Xbox anymore about not having games, you can let that narrative go. We’re all very grateful that Xbox is releasing all these formerly multiplat IP’s to multiple platforms 😁

Fable is all i’m interested in at this point, but pretty excited about the showcase

The Playstation deals coming so soon after the Xbox price increase, were a cold move. But I also think Xbox doesn’t care

@Nintendo4Sonic

The M2 SSDs which are used on PS5 didn't get really cheaper over the last years.

M2 SSD’s have gotten more cheaper. Just a quick search and i’m finding deals as low as $319 for a 4TB SSD for the PS5. Thats $110 cheaper than this. No, Xbox just made a bad call here, propriety hardware just isnt going to drop in price as fast as third party options

@HonestHick Microsoft doing this to ultimately break down the closed wall business model does seems plausible.
Whether they’ll succeed is another thing though.

The smartphone industry is very different from gaming consoles. Phones are more of a necessity and an ubiquitous product used by billions of people, consoles however are a luxury product used by millions. Thats a huge difference in scale, and regulators might not see the need to regulate game storefronts as they do to app stores. Consoles just aren’t as essential to daily life for people.

That said, Microsoft trying to disrupt the current business models in gaming, yes i think thats highly plausible. Microsoft has the brains and money to play the long game. And if ever their plans do come to fruition, Sony better have some answers or they might be cooked

@cragis0001 The problem is, if they put Steam on the next Xbox, they won’t make any money. I can hardly call that a good strategy. What would be the point in making a console? But we’ll see, they must have negotiated something else with Valve, otherwise I don’t understand their game plan here

@HarmanSmith What I find interesting, is that for every one of those PS games they will sell through Steam. Xbox gets $0. And the same goes for every other title on Steam, except for Xbox titles. They will be giving up their 30% cut on all games. It’s baffling to me.

To be clear. If Steam is on the next Xbox, they will make no money from the games sold on their own console, unless it’s an Xbox title. Even then, they’d only get 70% instead of the full 100% they get now. Unless they have some other things up their sleeve, this seems like the weirdest ‘shooting yourself in the foot strategy’ I’ve ever seen

So with the next Xbox, they would not make any money on game sales, except if Xbox titles are sold? And they’d only get 70% from those. Uhm, great plan? 😐

@Stoned_Patrol Nope, not kidding. Project Gummybears is a Sony first party title, so I put it on the roadmap, don’t know what to tell ya 🤷🏻‍♂️

Selling physical discs without actual content on it is as ridiculous and misleading as selling physical cds or blurays with nothing on it, and it should be either illegal or heavily regulated

@MysticWangForce Ah C’mon! 😆 Yeah, it’s sad if your while identity is based on a console platform and you’re right that these things can get pretty exhausting. But a little bit of banter back and forth is allright. Just don’t take it all too seriously. Look at football, grown men painting their faces and crying about a lost game. Compared to that this doesn’t seem so bad 😂

@RegnumSolipsi Ugh, the whole “I thought PS gamers didn’t like Xbox games” narrative.

No, in fact not every Playstation gamer has the same taste. Also not every Xbox gamer has the same taste. This is a ridiculously narrow way of thinking. Don’t believe everything you read on the internet. And i don’t know if a million sales of Forza means all PS gamers suddenly love Xbox games. 74 million didn’t buy it. It’s not like we can conclude that all PS gamers are now into Xbox games. The truth is, some PS gamers might be into some Xbox games, especially now that they’ve acquired two of the biggest 3rd party publishers, with around 15 studios that have always developed for Playstation as well. There is the nuanced truth, but i’m sure this narrative will keep on going

I mean, it’s also because none of the other games in that top 10 released in April, except for Clair Obscur, so it’s kinda natural that these newly released games are going to be on top for this month, right? Also, no Playstation releases in April, so of course they are ‘dominating’. Something tells me it would be a different picture if Ghost of Yotei released in April 😉

But i must say, knowing that Forza Horizon 5 released the 29th and still sold that much in April?That’s impressive, nice job

but they dont even have a roadmap.

Here’s a Playstation roadmap of 2025 and beyond, so far. I only added the games Sony is publishing, and untitled projects, following the template of the Xbox roadmap.

• 2025
• MLB 25
• The Midnight Murder Club
• Death Stranding 2
• Lost Soul Aside
• Marathon
• Ghost of Yotei
• 2026
• Saros
• Upcoming
• Wolverine
• Convallaria
• Fairgames
• Intergalactic
• Project Delta
• Project Gummy Bears by TeamLFG
• Untitled project by Dark Outlaw Games
• Physint

If i were to include all exclusives not published by Sony, we can also add:

• The Midnight Walk
• Baby Steps
• Phantom Blade Zero
• Sword of the Sea

@Millionski

Everyone so wants to jump to PS (i am guilty with such comments too lol) but they dont even have a roadmap. We only have 1 real exclusive this year - ghost of yotei. DS2 is a timed exclusive and there was also a chienese game I believe thats for now is listed as Ps only.

Why does PS get so many different criteria and caveats? 😂 GoY is the only “real” exclusive? Death Stranding 2 is a timed exclusive (you apparently know more than us) so it doesn’t count? Meanwhile almost nothing on this Xbox roadmap is exclusive. You don’t seem to be making all those distinctions for Xbox.
All these mental gymnastics is really cracking me up

@GeorgeKal Sorry but no handheld beats the PS Portal in terms of comfort. It’s basically a full Dual Sense controller

Edit: Lol, did not even notice the comment above 😂

@Tasuki Isn’t the Rog Ally priced around $599 already? If this is more powerful, then i doubt it’ll be cheaper. More choice is always good indeed for consumers, i suppose. But the market for these devices is so small, i really wonder what Microsofts game plan is here. Especially since they won’t be making any money from the 3rd party Steam sales on this device. I doubt they’re chasing the “lucrative” profit margins of the device itself. But I’ll reserve judgement till we know more about their plans.

Personally i’m more interested in their own handheld device (2027)

I have nothing against Game Pass and think it’s great value for what it offers. Issue for me is i’m just not interested in most of the games on it. I dont play a ton of games anymore, so i focus on what i’m really interested in. This year the games i’m interested in are AC Shadows, KCD2, Death Stranding 2, Shinobi, Mafia, Phantom Blade Zero, Ghost of Yotei, GTA6 and Fable, mostly isn’t on there.

Even if i was subscribed to Game Pass, i’d still need to buy those games separately.

Now that Fable got delayed, there’s really nothing on it that i’m interested in, maybe Clair Obscur, but if it’s just one or a few games it makes much more sense for me to just buy them individually.

It would be fine if the only games i wanted to play we’re the games on Game Pass, but they’re not. So for someone like me who isn’t that into Xbox games, Game Pass is not going to be of much value. But i can see how it’s an awesome service for others