Xbox Layoffs Cut id Software In Half As DOOM: The Dark Ages DLC Launches

Not justifying this, this stucks and that cant be ignored.

I do think I see whats going on here, though. Push Square noted most of the members let go here were coders likely maintaining idTech. After all it's aquisitions, Xbox has at least 3 engines that are being used exactly for the same goal: FPS (Slipspace Engine for Halo, idTech for Doom/Wolfenstein, IW8 for Call of Duty).

Add to that the fact that IW8 was an evolution of idTech 3.

It sort of makes sense that they might opt to cut on that department and mandate that future entries of halo, id and machine games all start using the same engines Call of Duty uses.

As stated by others, it may be that they are replacing Id Tech with IW, since both engines are based on the same source and are seemingly capable of doing the same.

This is one I really don't understand. Some of the other layoffs yeah, but you don't cut down on one of your best studios, you just reallocate them to something else if you have to

@MinervaX76 Halo Studios announced a while back that it would no longer be using Slipspace. Starting with Halo: Campaign Evolved, all Halo games are using Unreal Engine.

@Markatron84 @MinervaX76 I wonder why Halo Studios do not move to IW instead.

@Banjo- presumably because Unreal is so ubiquitous across the industry, and so the knowledge around using it is so commonplace.

id Software used to be one of the best studios under Xbox. If anyone should be prioritized for layoffs, it should be Halo Studios or Turn 10 instead.

@Banjo- @Markatron84 That's port was done by a separate studio (think outsourced) and so was the talks and rumors about halo using Unreal in the future.

I think since Asha's appointment they are looking to reduce costs and that likely includes minimizing unecesary license overheads of Unreal Engine. Hell I would not be shocked if whatever next entry is done for Gears (be it Gear's 6 or Emergence Day 2 or whatever) is mandated to be done using IW8.

I think Asha is a lot more financially driven than previous management and is unlikely to be swayed by "but this engine is key to the feel of the game", especially if they are forced to pay a third party for it's use.

Plus: Unreal has been getting worse over time and the promises of UE5 at the start of the generation have not really materialized. The only benefit for UE was that it was easier to hire talent for, especially given some annoying hiring policies enforced by upper management at MS on how long they can maintain a contract for. That forced them to lose contractors that spent months training on inshouse tools, and Phil likely hoped switching to Unreal would remove the training barrier.

Asha has so far managed to get some more breathing room from upper MS management so long she does what she been tasked, so maybe she can change that policy if only within Xbox.

Fantastic news, more "trimming the fat" right guys? Serves them right for taking too long to release mediocre games, that's what you all say down here isn't it?

@xboxjapanfan If my theory is correct, expect a very similar news from Halo studios soon. Although I think their engine team might had already been disolved under Phil.

@Ooccoo_Jr You kid, but that is essentially what this is about lol.

@xboxjapanfan turn 10 is pretty much gone already they are a support studio for Forza Horizon.

Literally a business move made by cutting numbers in half without understanding how badly this undermines their focus on their core products they just said they're going to focus on. Such beautiful work from Id too!

@Fiendish-Beaver If I understand the bits we are putting together from multiple articles, these are not "only coders", but specifically idTech coders, not game logic coders.

There might be some there, as well as others (it was not JUST coders) but it does really sound as the bulk was the team in charge of maintaining and developing the idTech engine.

There are certainly still coders that focus on content and mission scripting still there, and idTech sharing a root with IW8 might minimize any training overheads relative to a brand new engine.

Everyone: Do keep in mind that my talks about IW8 taking over at Xbox is just a theory based on a likely cold corporate view of reducing redundancies AND licensing fees of third party engines.

@MinervaX76 it's just my opinion but Id would've been the right team to take over Halo. A brutal master chief would not be unwelcome and I think properly fit the spirit of the first two games.

@themightyant That's what I am expecting, for the unreal plans to change again. Unreal is not a cheap engine and really can eat on revenues of larger titles. It can be cheap/free for indies but AAA titles likely pay huge slices of their revenue to Unreal for the convenience of using their pre-packaged product.

@MinervaX76 Taken from the Xbox Wire (so as official and not rumour as it gets) article titled "Halo Studios: New Name, New Engine, New Games, New Philosophy":

We’re entering a new dawn for Halo. Those new visuals were created using Unreal Engine 5 – and we learned that all future Halo projects will use the engine, and that multiple new games using it are in development.

@Fiendish-Beaver

without actually thinking for themselves...

Anyone with long term memory that can remember my posting knows I have not been a fan of Asha from the get go and I have been very critical of many of her calls so far.

I know you are not specifically talking about me, but you might be including me under the umbrella. What I am doing is literally thinking for myself and trying to actually resolve what logic Asha is using.

I also stated this in Push Square: if I am right I still feel these coders should had been given a chance to move to the IW8 development team instead of just being fired. Depreciating the engine and removing redundancies is one thing, getting rid of solid talent that can help a potential "Xbox Engine" is something I still find like a cruel waste.

@Markatron84 That was 2024. We now have new management, new direction, new philosophy [again].

If the Halo remake was outsourced to Abstraction and others and Halo Studios moved away from Slipspace after Halo Infinity, no reason to not use IW from now on despite previous statements made during Phil's tenure. Machine could also use it since they are incredibly good at Id Tech, just check Indiana Jones and the Great Circle. The advantages of doing so are cutting costs, streamlining development and supporting each other. They could even invest more resources in the engine if they only need to maintain one for Xbox shooters. The Coalition uses Unreal Engine 5 masterfully, so no reason why they wouldn't achieve the same results on IW.

@Banjo- Agree. Still it IS annoying that it sounds they were just fired without being given a "do you want to relocate under the IW8 team?" even if that came with physical relocation requirements.

(again, this is only if it is indeed the reason, but I cant see any other reason to kill idTech than to reduce redundancy)

@MinervaX76 Of course plans could change, but you very clearly said:

the talks and rumors about halo using Unreal in the future

Again, yes, plans could change. But there were no rumours about Halo using Unreal in the future; just reported facts.

@Markatron84 Mostly said that becaus the rumors had been going on for a LONG time (supposedly the canned Battle Royale mode for Infinity was going to be done in Unreal and there were even rumors of a full Unreal transition for Infinite post launch).

But I'll stand corrected that it was an official statement and no longer just a rummor.

@themightyant I think part of what got us here is that Phil bought these studios, integrated them into Microsoft Proper, but let them behave as independent subsidiaries (why they likely ended with 14 layers of management).

Only that an independent subsidiary usually needs to be a lot more careful about their own finances, Xbox just let them forget about the money and let them do whatever they wanted passing the bill up to MS when GP revenue would not cover it.

As for Halo, I have serious doubt Halo "6" development has even started in ernest, but that's just me being an extreme cynic and finding recently that State of Decay 3 didn't really start development until 2025 despite its 2020 reveal.

Edit: and yes, we been clearly told that anything that was the plan before is no longer the plan.

@MinervaX76 I can see how it might seem to make sense to move to either IW8 or idTech8 from Xbox's perspective; it would unify the development teams and either the Call of Duty studios or id would be able to share their knowledge with Halo Studios. However, let's not forget what happened when EA tried to do the same thing with Frostbite. Maybe Xbox would handle the transition better but, in my opinion anyway, it's risky.

Edit: also, is anyone else battling with autocorrect constantly changing "id" to "I'd"? It's very much giving me the hump.

They released 6 games in 15 years. They thought they could just have a job for life or something?

@themightyant 5% of the gross revenue is not cheap for a publisher that is struggling to reach at least a 15% profit margin and already has internal engines (they are not saving on developing one).

@MinervaX76 Of course. Some people are stating that we are happy about people being fired. That is utterly false and demagogic. We are just trying to be reasonable and find reasons, explanations and likely outcomes. Since Asha joined Xbox, we have learned many things that were unknown until now. I'm shocked to read a CEO being so brutally honest and straightforward. We are not used to this, but I like it.

On topic, Id, Machine and The Coalition are all excellent developers, so I believe that they are able to maintain and use the same in-house engine efficiently.

@Banjo- I'm not going to say I like it. Honestly I don't, she could handle things a lot more tactfully and still get similar results, she is going to get a bad rap soon and people will likely end up seeing her as a grim ripper.

I also know people that work inside Xbox Games Studios (I wont elaborate), and they in turn know people and have family. I am not happy one bit about any of this.

I do know for sure this could have been way way worse than its being. It sucks, big time, but it could had been so much worse and am sure many were preparing for that even worse case scenario.

@MinervaX76

I'm not going to say I like it.

I mean liking that she is being straightforward and honest. That's what I said "reading", because I was referring to her statements. It's much better than hiding the truth and what Microsoft really expects from this reboot. Nadella said it in his interview, Microsoft has been subsidising Xbox. Asha has a chance to reboot it and keep the Xbox division profitable. The alternative would be killing the division from the perspective of Nadella and the stockholders.

We are operating at margins that are 3-10x lower than comparable platform and publishing businesses. [...] in some parts of the company, work passes through as many as 14 layers of management. Our platform teams are 40% larger than they were at the start of this generation

@themightyant I work in a HUGE shop. I know sometimes/often the layers are necessary. No one can effectively micro-manage 100 creative professionals effectively by themselves, management trees are needed to be more effective.

Of course the 14 layers was not universal. I am nearly certain it was primarily/deeper in ABK and Bethesda, that were brought in yet had minimal structural adjustments.

I'm still certain a lot of those layers were unecesary redundancies. And as much as I will go to the grave defending Phil (Xbox would no longer even exist without his contributions) I also think he hated doing many management things and just created additional layers to avoid doing so and "give studios creative freedom".

[stopping my posting here, got stuff to get done]

@MinervaX76 sounds like less creativity and innovation