Topic: project scorpio

@VanillaLake Thanks for posting that, it was a great read and I thought it was quite informative.

@crippyd: You are welcome, it is definitely worth reading. I think it clears all the doubts and forums' speculations up. Everything is in the interview: Original Xbox One, Xbox One S, Scorpio and PC.

I've just read that interview and now I'm a little disappointed with how they're planning things to work... I understand that they want games to work on both systems but he seems to be saying that unless you have a 4K TV then you will see no benefit at all on the Scorpio. I would have thought the whole point was to enjoy a boost in resolution and FPS up to what your TV can support (in my case 1080p... but if all we can have is 720/900 or whatever the Xbox One can support, OR 4K on the Scorpio with a 4K TV then the whole thing has become a lot less appealing... in fact I can't see me bothering to get one at all.

On a PC you can enjoy a game at whatever resolution your GFX card supports, whether that be a lowly 1280x1024 or a hefty 3840x2160 or anything inbetween. He's basically saying we can only have one of the two extremes now which just seems ludicrous.

@VanillaLake: An interesting read but if that is the case - not PR spin - I can't see the Scorpio lasting very long because the XB1 will NOT be able to play games 2years later - will MS release its next, more powerful console to deliver games that the XB1 can't and therefore won't play on XB1? Yes I know 4k is resource heavy but what if a game can't hit 4k/30 on the hardware. The Titan struggles at 4k/30 with some games unless you start turning the effects down. Does that mean the Scorpio will have very poor visual effects just to hit 4K? 6tflops isn't that much of a monster. AMD's Polaris can reach 5.5 for $230 (RRP), nVidias GTX 1070 is $380 (RRP) and delivers better than a Titan level of performance and somewhere in the region of 6+tflops. The GTX 1080 is 7tflops yet can't run the Witcher3, Division, Rise of the Tomb Raider, etc games released in the past year or so, at 4k/60 so how can a console with less power manage it - cut back on the visual effects of course or lock the frame rate to 30fps. Personally I would much prefer 1440p with 60fps and much higher levels of visual effects. According to that info though, it seems MS are intent on just hitting resolution numbers - screw the games playability and overall visual presentation - its 4k!! If it is 'iterative' then why the hell release it at the end of the XB1 generation? I can see a lot changing between now and its intended release. Yes Forza runs at 1080/60 but there is SO many sacrifices to visual quality to reach that level. 3rd Party games - particularly Frostbite 3 games tun at 720/60 (Mirrors Edge as dips below 60) so if SW:BF2 runs at 720/30 next year on XB1, will the Scorpio also be 30fps??? Especially if the PC are playing it at 1440-4k/60!! If that is the case then I will just wait for PS5 or the next Xbox that would have to release because games cannot run or will not be worth buying on XB1. I can understand not leaving software behind, even the fact that there would be a year or 2 where games 'cross-over' so to speak but you cant tell me that 7ys after release, games will still be running on XB1 well enough to warrant a release or that the Scorpio will lose our on content (like BO3 on XB360) because they had to cut it? I say BS and PR spin to keep selling XB1's in the meantime!!

I am under no illusion that the Neo is a enhance PS4 and likely to be replaced in 2-3years by the PS5 because the PS4 won't be able to deliver the gaming experience. I am under no illusion that the Neo may only be around for a few years before the 'next' big release and that's partly why its not that significant a power increase/difference. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Sony release PS5 in Q4 2018, a year after Scorpio without any restrictions on developers to release PS4 versions - even though they 'could' run on Neo. Obviously the first wave should cross over like every other new gen but would still have its own software release to.

It would make more sense to buy/build a PC, connect it up to my TV and use that as a console capable of 4k - especially as 2 AMD 480's are better than one nvidia 1080's and cost nearly half as much! If you price it up, you could do it for £4-500 now and still play all the Xbox exclusives (inc Forza Horizon 3, Gears 4) in 4k HDR and online with your Xbox friends/family!! In a few months add in another AMD 480 and blow the XB Scorpio away before it launches and not have to be restricted by XB1's limitations!!!!

@stylon: @BAMozzy: Xbox has become a PC-console combo. You choose between PC or console. There will be more powerful PCs and there will be more powerful "Xbox scorpios" after Scorpio. The software will be the same with the highest resolution on the more powerful platforms (PC and Scorpio) and the lower resolution on Xbox One. This is already a reality between PC and Xbox One, but he is saying that they will try that you get the best possible performance on Xbox One regarding frames per second, which is actually good for us all, because frames are more important than resolution for gamers. That would be the scenario when Scorpio is out around Christmas 2017. After a few years (2020?), I think software will start being more technically demanding (what you guys are asking for), thus games running on Xbox One will be downgraded somehow (this is just speculation), but by then Xbox One will be 7 years old, more people will have a 4K TV and Scorpio will be the most popular console, unless Neo beats Scorpio of course, which I doubt because of the following paragraph.

I think one of the most interesting parts is when he explains why Scorpio is not out this year and why a 2016 console won't be able to really handle 4K resolutions. People could think: Oh, he works for Microsoft, but it is actually true, because Sony has confirmed their 4K escalation plans for Neo, and DigitalFoundry (Eurogamer) thinks that PS4Neo won't be able to handle resolutions above 1080p without escalation. Also, the Neo is targeted at hardcore gamers, and the hardcore gamers want the very best so they might avoid Neo and wait for Scorpio. Moreover, the hardcore gamers that already own a PS4 and skipped Xbox One might be even more interested in Scorpio. Kudos to Microsoft for showing both consoles (Xbox One S and Scorpio) at the same time, so nobody feels ripped off when they buy an Xbox One S.

My conclusion is that you guys should not be disappointed but happy that the next Xbox console is not rushed like Neo, which is not able to make your 4K TVs use those 4K pixels without upscaling. Not a bad thing that software runs on all consoles, think of it as PC software, which also is becoming more technically demanding each year. This backs up my hypothesis above, better software will come to Scorpio, but not at launch.

The Neo is not 'rushed' and given the choice of playing 720/60, 900/60 or 1080/60 - I would pick 1080/60 EVERYTIME. Given the choice of 1080/60 or 1440 or even 4k/30fps - I would pick 1080/60 everytime - even though I have a 4k TV. The Neo has around 2,5x the power of the PS4 - this is more than enough to ensure a 1080/60 in probably every game in the next 2yrs. It is an iterative console designed purely to see the PS4 through to the 5th generation. If its only around for 2yrs before the 5th gen (and for a few years cross-over), I am absolutely fine with that. Its not too powerful that it would be too expensive and a waste once games no longer come to PS4 (as they could still easily run on the Neo) but powerful enough to enhance the games in the short term between now and that 5th generation.

I wouldn't want to try and play a brand new game developed with the new technology in mind on a 4-5yr old PC - especially not online - frame rates of 30fps, resolution sub 1080p up against 1440p/120+ fps - I would have NO chance. You try running the Witcher 3 or the Division on a 4-5yr old PC and see how much 'fun' you have!! Try running it on a 6-7yr old PC and you have NO chance. If you really think you can play TF2, BF1 etc against/with PC gamers with frame rates more than double what the XB1 has and with 1080-1440p res whilst you are on 720p, then I think you need to try it - you will not last 5mins - be shot before you even see or can respond - Co-op - as shown at E3, could be a possibility but you will certainly not be as effective or useful to a team...

Games are always getting more technically demanding, pushing the technology that the developers have at their disposal. Frostbite 3 games for example don't run at above 720/60 on XB1 - do you think that Dice will not push what they have achieved with SW:BF and BF1 with next years SW:BF2? Maybe that will run at 30fps on XB1 and if that then affects what level they make the Scorpio version (i'e 30fps but 4k) then no way will I buy it, I will wait for the next gen of Xbox - the one that isn't restricted by dated and virtually obsolete hardware - the one that puts Frame-rate above resolution numbers - or like I said just build my own PC console so I can choose whether I want 4k/30 or 1440/60 (FYI it would be 1440/60). Its not as if I can't play any Xbox exclusives any more as they will all be on PC and already at 4k. Forza Horizon 3 and Gears 4 for example have already been developed for 4k HDR on PC so why not release the Scorpio now and use that for 4k? Games like BF1, TF2, CoD, ME:A in fact every game that has come out for PC and will come out for PC as well as XB1 has and already will run at 4k so its BS that MS are taking their time to give developers a chance to develop 4k games for it - absolute BS!!!!!

They even showed Forza Horizon 3 running at 4k on a PC during their E3 press conference - so why not release the Scorpio and have FH3 running at 4k now - Why not? because then MS wouldn't sell the Slim or the XB1 for the next year - that's why not!!!

@VanillaLake: Please don't think I am having ago at you or your opinion. I appreciate the fact you have taken the time to find these articles and share them. I also appreciate a healthy discussion/debate. I just think that what MS are saying (not you) is absolute BS to sell consoles over the next 12-18months. The fact is that there is no reason that the Scorpio couldn't release and give 4k gaming now so that time delay is BS and there is NO way that ALL games/content could run sufficiently on XB1 for the duration of its life expectancy - not unless they are planning on releasing a new console a year or 2 later that won't be limited to software that has to tun on XB1 too - when that reaches its 5th/6th year. MS can't release its 'next' gen now as that could be a sign that they 'failed' with this gen and would impact heavily on XB1/slim sales too.

How about we revisit this thread yearly (after each E3), and see whether or not MS have been using PR spin or whether I am wrong....

If ANY software/hardware (inc VR) releases at anytime on the Scorpio but not XB1, then what they have said in this interview is BS and PR spin!

@BAMozzy: Your last comment (apologies) belongs more in here I think:

http://www.pushsquare.com/forums/retro_and_other_gaming/xbox_...

One of the biggest problems I see with gamers is they are so worried about what is next instead of enjoying what's available now. It's sad but maybe I just need to get off the Internet.

@Ryno: That's anything in general it's just human nature. Subconsciously we want to be bigger better, always looking for improvent, whether it's our bodys, possessions, or anything else we have.

People buy a car and once it's paid off they get another one. They get a new iPhone they are already looking at the next one.

It's sad honestly.

Seems nobody really understands what the future holds and now that the dust is settling the initial excitement about a new console is turning into negativity. They make some very good points in the article, none of them offering comfort to existing Xbox One owners. I'm not even sure which route to follow myself now... if all the games are going to come out on PC then why even bother with an Xbox at all...

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-06-16-microsofts-mixed...

@Ryno: We all want that 'something' to look forward to. Whether its a new console, new game or even something like a holiday but that doesn't mean that people aren't enjoying what they have now. You don't sit on the beach on the first day and think where shall I go on holiday next year, you don't open the box to your brand new console/phone/TV etc and ask 'what's next'.

Obviously around E3, there is a lot more 'future' talk because that is what E3 is.

There is always talk about what we enjoyed, what we are enjoying and what we want to enjoy next. I bet around Christmas/January time, there will be a lot of talk about 2015's Game of the Year - what we enjoyed most (for the record, at the moment my choice for GotY is Uncharted 4!). Speculation and discussion about future wants/wishes etc has always been there - people always ask kids for example what they want to be when they grow up. Generally they get asked what they had for birthday/christmas for about a week. So growing up, its more common to talk about the future and what people are looking forward to - more so than the present or past.

Knowing that Scorpio is out next year or the Neo could be out this year isn't affecting my enjoyment of gaming now, it isn't influencing my choice of games I play or want - not going to deny it may determine which platform I buy games for based on the release schedule but its not affecting my current enjoyment of games.

Like I said, talk of the future is obviously going to be a lot higher around E3, after all virtually everything shown is for the future...

@stylon: hmm... interesting read. Ive yet to watch the E3 announcement but from what I've read so far I'm not too impressed. It looks like Xbox is turning into a limited PC, which is not what I want. I don't believe 'scorpio' games will all be playable on Xbox one, so I see this as the first nail in the coffin for Xbox one. Given MS track record of statements that are then completely u-turned, I fully expect this will follow suit. At this time I'm not considering a new Xbox as I don't like the way things are moving. I don't have 4k, have no current interest in VR and if MS are to be believed, any new games will work on my Xbox one. If I'm brutally honest, I'd probably consider PlayStation as a contender now when this was not the case for the last upgrade.

@Captain_Chao5: Hey I'm sure it's not bad enough to jump ship... as people have said 18 months is a long time, think we need to see what emerges over the next 12 months before making any hasty decisions. I know what you mean though, us early adopters have taken a real beating off Microsoft with all the U-turns, killing off of Kinect, massive price drops, resolutiongate etc etc.

If (and that's a big if at the moment) I was going to do anything I would probably move to PC. I've not been into PC gaming since Half-Life 2 or thereabouts (a long time basically) but things have changed a hell of a lot since then. Having just treated myself to a Windows 10 laptop with discrete GFX chip everything just works now. GOG and Steam have streamlined the whole process of getting and installing games and the new Xbox App and Windows 10 Xbox games just work, exactly like on the Xbox. I installed Forza Apex, attached my laptop to the TV via HDMI, plugged in my Xbox One pad and off I went. Games look and play just the same as on the console, achievements are there, messaging, DVR, activity feed etc. Days of arsing about with driver updates, dodgy CD copy protection and having to use a keyboard and mouse for everything seem to be well and truly over.

I'm heavily invested in the Xbox eco system. I love the achievements system, the pad, the game selection and most of my real life friends (and online) friends are on Xbox too so I wouldn't want to throw that all away to start over on a rival system. Sony have basically stayed shtum over their new console but effectively they're creating a very similar divide of their userbase. It does seem whichever way you look at it, the traditional console cycle is changing. Anyway I've strayed a bit off topic there but basically my message is keep the faith, at least for the time being

@stylon: The Xbox eco-system is why I am considering my own PC 'console'. I could build a small form PC with something like the AMD RX480 (or 2 in SLI) and play all the upcoming Xbox exclusives in upto 4k on my TV - games like Forza Horizon 3, Gears 4 etc a year+ before the 'Scorpio' comes out, get all the achievements, still play with my XB1 friends, still use my Elite controller etc as well as play all the big multi-platform games at higher resolution and frame rates too...

@stylon what are you doing man? This is the internet, what are you doing talking sense and being all rational?!
Anyway, back to my own topic... I'm very interested to see what MS have in store for the Xbox and the Scorpio, although I'm unsure about the PC direction it seems to be going. I want one to sear my eyeballs with fancy graphics, which the Scorpio seems like it'll deliver on that.

@crippyd: Lol. We're all long enough in the tooth here to be past acting like fanboys and (I think) we all want the same thing; the best Xbox experience we can afford. The Scorpio really does sound like it can deliver... I think MS just need to get their act together and get a more coherent message across... really does boggle the mind that a multi-billion dollar company can still make blunders like this on a regular basis

@BAMozzy: Been toying with that idea myself. Fly in the ointment is that it would appear only first party games are going to get the Windows 10 treatment which would leave all the other games as native PC games. I know Steam have their own achievements but it's just not the same. Would all the other PC games fully support the Xbox pad? I know I've played a few other games and whilst the pad has worked, features like rumble are ignored. The other thing that worries me is some of the PC versions of games have been appalling... Arkham Knight for instance whereas the Xbox version was perfect with the hardware being a known quantity.

@stylon: I don't know about 3rd Party games but would have thought that if they were bought through the Store, they may have that Xbox style support. Watching the BF1 MP matches that were played after the EA conference, a number of players were happy using a controller whilst others were playing with keyboard/mouse combo's. Keyboard/mouse is not the way I want to play either. I have enough trouble typing/hitting the right keys now (and I was a graphic designer for years). I would constantly be looking at my keyboard to do anything. Its one of the reasons that puts me off the idea but I hear its a lot better these days for controller support and the Elite at least could/should be customisable to set the controls to a familiar scheme.

MS's chat has been 'conflicting' - even regarding the Slim. On the one hand the Coalition are saying it performs better than the standard XB1 on their game but Phil Spencer says there is no difference. The Scorpio is just a 4k XB1 and that it will only benefit those with 4k TV's (which I think is BS) - who wants to play games like Fallout 4, Dark Souls 3 etc at 4k 30fps when you could play these at 1440(upscaled)/60fps? In his interview, he was careful to pick 1080/60 but very few games run at that - FH3 and Gears 4 are running at 30fps. He also said that MP would be the same frame rates for XB1/Scorpio/PC and during the FH3 cross-play demo all were running at 30fps - inc PC. Then in the 2nd breath he is saying he will give developers the freedom to use the Scorpio's power as they see fit - meaning that they 'could' opt for the 1440/60 route. If you think about it, 4x the power is roughly what's needed to take a game from 1080 to 4k (4x the pixels). Other improvements in the architecture, bandwidth, CPU and GPU processing speeds make it easier to hit 4k too. What I think, based on this, is that MS and its studio's will continue to support the XB1. Games like Forza, Halo, Gears etc will still get XB1 releases but I can see 3rd Party developers and VR getting just Scorpio releases - maybe not in the first year (except VR) but at some point. I really can't see developers wanting to release games that really struggle or look so bad that no-one really wants to buy them will release. You wouldn't buy the Witcher 3, Fallout etc if your PC can't run them - even with the settings turned right down or off would you?

Its still 18months away and that's a very long time in gaming. A lot of games coming out in that time were primary developed using the 'old' architecture/API's etc but with the new technology in the hands of developers, they will inevitably push their games to the next level, trying to outdo what's come before, trying to be bigger and better than the competition etc and that will require more and more resources - something the XB1 hasn't got. In fairness to the PS4, it does have a bit more room to manoeuvre as games still haven't hit 720/60, 900/30 (in the big AAA 3rd Party multi-plat releases) like they have on XB1.The resolution itself maybe not important between the systems but if games push the PS4 to drop to 720/30, then how will these run on an XB1?

I can't stand playing with a keyboard and mouse for long, gives me cramp in my left hand lol, much prefer a pad these days.

As for the Scorpio it would be madness for it not to offer better performing versions of Xbox Ones games and as it is sure to be cheaper than building an equivalent PC it would make it an attractive proposition. However if they stick to their guns and insist on 4k or nothing then that's when decisions will have to be made.

They've just announced the following list of games that will work on both the Xbox and Windows 10. It's quite a big list... I guess they're much more interested in the revenue from selling games on any platform rather than shifting consoles given that all the 'console seller' titles are in this list.

Gears of War 4
Forza Horizon 3
ReCore
Sea of Thieves
Halo Wars 2
Scalebound
Killer Instinct Season 3
State of Decay 2
Ark: Survival Evolved
Cuphead
We Happy Few
Crackdown 3

@stylon: Which makes me wonder why I buy an Xbox at all... I certainly prefer the 'console' experience, ease of use (inc control, set up, etc) but it seems that MS are trying to make Win 10 gaming more like the console experience anyway. Its not like PC's can't be connected up to TV's or use controllers anymore.

Incidentally the nVidia GTX 1070 and 1080 have been bench tested with 15 different games across multiple resolutions and both are giving better results than the Titan. Neither can deliver a consistent and full 4k/60fps performance as shown in the image below and considering the 1080 is approx 9tflops and the 1070 is approx 6.5tflops - both more than the Scorpio, I do wonder how the console will manage to deliver that level of performance unless it really scales back all the visual settings...