Topic: General Xbox Series X|S Thread

Expand

@Tharsman Long story short: polygon count on screen for everyone might be held back by PS5 power, even if everyone else still gets a better looking game.

At the end of the day, the 'weakest' console on the Market is likely to be the Series S in terms of raw GPU power and RAM - if the specs are to be believed - so if any console is going to hold back next gen on 'power' alone, then that would be the Series S.

Of course there is a LOT more to Graphics than Polygon count and, if you are not targetting higher resolutions, not having to process larger images etc, then you don't need the same power to render a single frame in what ever frame time window they are looking at. Polygon counts may not be so important in the future either with new ways to reduce the polygon count for more distant objects, only rendering the polygons in view etc too.

The Unreal Engine demo was a good example of rendering ridiculously high polygon count images - far more polygons than there are pixels on screen and, as a single pixel cannot render multiple colours, multiple pixels, that pixel ultimately becomes just 1 'polygon'.

If you watch nVidias Asteroids demo, you will see how mesh shading also helps reduce the Polygon count too

This shows that the same Asteroid can be automatically adjusted from 20 polygons up to over 5m depending on its size and distance from the camera. Xbox has Mesh Shaders and Sony has their own 'version' too.

Also a great video about Mesh Shading and Culling too (Culling polygons not in view).

The point is, the amount of Polygons could be virtually unlimited in the future with new engines, API's etc that culls Polygons, automatically reduces polygon counts on objects depending on distance or maybe to gain performance or scale games across platforms. I don't have the 'full' details on the PS5's Geometry Engine, what that may offer devs, but its possible that devs can automatically adjust the 'polygon' complexity as a 'setting' - much like they could adjust the Polygon complexity based on distance from a camera. It could be another graphical setting option with maybe the more powerful GPU's having a 'higher' Polygon setting so objects closer to the camera have a higher polygon count than say a weaker GPU - like having better Shadow quality closer to the camera.

For a Developer, that won't take any more work either as they make high quality, extremely high polygon count models and then have to make textures and lower polygon versions from that for their games. Nanite basically does the same in a game engine too. Even if Sony's PS5 can't render the same polygon count for example, it doesn't mean that will be the baseline. The devs could set the LoDs differently so an object at 'X' distance has lower polygon count than on Series X for example so it doesn't have the same polygon count but also doesn't mean the Series X or PC have to also be 'reduced'.

At the end of the day though, we will have to see what will happen in the future and what the decisions of Sony and MS will mean for game devs and how quickly they get to grips with the hardware. If Devs don't get to grips with MS's Velocity Architecture and handling data transfer from SSD, that too could be an issue in some 3rd Party games - longer loading, texture/object pop in, stutter/slow down etc. Right now though, we only know a little about the hardware and not what devs are doing to push that hardware, what they may need to do to work around any differences between hardware, and whether or not any of that has a 'big' noticeable difference in the look and performance between the consoles. If you have to pause the game and compare a static screenshot to see if an asteroid in the distance has fewer polygons but can't tell whilst playing, does it matter? I guess it does if you want bragging rights. Maybe the polygon counts will be the same but Sony have to compromise more on resolution - if devs opt for CB 4k for example and Xbox use Native 4k, that's 'half' the image size being rendered per frame. We will have to see and compare as the Generation progresses and Devs become more and more experienced with both sets of hardware. I don't necessarily think that 3rd Party Devs will be looking at the PS5 as the limit for polygon counts in the future though...

Expand

@Z3u5000 from the HDMI website:-

HDMI 2.1 Specification was developed by the HDMI Forum’s Technical Working Group. The HDMI Forum, Inc. is comprised of the world’s leading manufacturers of consumer electronics, personal computers, mobile devices, cables, components, silicon; and also includes movie studios, service providers, test labs and test equipment manufacturers. An open trade association, The HDMI Forum’s mission is to foster broader industry participation in the development of future versions of the HDMI specification and to further expand the ecosystem of interoperable, HDMI-enabled products. The HDMI Forum currently has a membership of over 90 companies.

Backwards compatibility means that you can plug a HDMI 1.4 device (like a DVD player) into a HDMI2.1 display and that will work. Its taking a lower spec device into a 'higher' spec display so the Display is BC with devices. However, taking a Higher Spec device into a much older Display is not about Backwards Compatibility, that's forwards compatibility.

I am not saying it won't work but that dependent on the video out section on the Series X and whether or not they have built in compatibility with HDMI 1.4 (or lower) spec displays. A TV will send Extended Display Identification Data (EDID) - which is a metadata format for display devices to describe their capabilities to a video source - in this case, the TV will send metadata to the Series X over HDMI to describe its capabilities - ie what display resolution it supports, what formats it supports etc etc. If its supported, you obviously won't be able to engage HDR or VRR, won't be able to set resolution output over 1080p and may not be able to even get 1080/120 (depending on the TV and if it supports 120hz).

As I said though, I expect it will work as I can't imagine that MS will not support displays with HDMI 1.4 (or lower) - as a lot of TV's still have HDMI 1.4. However, I was just saying that until its confirmed 1 way or another, none of us can say for certain that it will be supported and you will get 'Y' Benefits - (like a super-sampled 4k image or 120hz gaming - even if the TV only displays a maximum of 60fps). I would say its 'likely' you will be 'OK' with the console sending an image to the TV - so you don't 'have' to upgrade immediately - but as MS themselves haven't stated anything regarding connecting to a HD TV and TV's with HDMI 1.4, we can't say for certain. Therefore I was just making people aware that its not as simple as just plugging in a much newer device to an older Display and it being 'compatible'. There is software involved to and whether or not the EDID from the TV is supported, we don't actually know. Its not just whether its HDMI 1.4 either as it could be incompatible on certain ports because the TV has different specs built into each port - different functions (like ARC, MHL etc) so may not be compatible with some HDMI 1.4 ports or better if plugged into a certain port. I know the MHL port on a 2014 Samsung 4k TV is the only port that supports 4k devices that require HDCP 2.2. That's an encryption to stop people plugging a device into any recorder and making copies of what's being displayed - and that stopped devices like SkyQ working at 4k on any other port on that TV. Point is, its not as simple as just being HDMI 1.4 (all the ports on a 2014 Samsung were HDMI 2.0 but only 1 has HDCP 2.2 encryption) that 'could' impact on its compatibility and what you may get (or not).

The point of my post wasn't to say it won't work for definite, but that we can't say 100% that they will have 'no' issue with compatibility or that they will definitely get certain benefits too - even if they will miss out on HDR, High Resolutions, VRR etc. It was more about making them aware that we all think it should work, but there could be some compatibility issue. Backwards Compatibility means that you can plug older devices into 'newer' ones and they will work as expected but this is a case of plugging a newer device into an older one which is why its limiting the full features available on the 'newer' devices - the TV isn't 'forward compatible' so you don't get 4k and, without the video output section, may not work at all. HDMI 1.4 doesn't have the bandwidth so would not handle the Console without the console changing the 'image' (like super sampling down to 1080p in size) and then sending much less 'data' to the TV so it copes.

Backwards Compatibility means that you can plug 'older' devices into a 'display' for example and they work so your HDMI 1.4 DVD player works, your HDMI 2.0 Games Console works into a HDMI 2.1 enabled TV. The signal path is from 'older' to 'new' - that's Backwards Compatible - why a DVD plays in a Bluray player - older into new, 360 games on an XB1 - older to new. Newer to old is a different matter and why some things don't work or if they do, you lose out on certain features/benefits.

Again - not saying it won't work in this case, I am sure MS will have built that into their video output section. That's taking the 'video' from the game and sending a video to the TV that it can display. However I am also saying that exactly what you get and whether or not you have issues can not be determined 100% at this time because nothing has been confirmed.