Topic: Series X specifications compared to PS5

Expand

@BlueOcean It was NOT a stupid comment at all. There is absolutely no confirmed information about the way the PS5 operates. It is entirely possible that the PS5 GPU runs at a 'fixed' 2GHz under normal/balanced power load - hence giving a 9.2Tflop GPU and, if it suddenly becomes overwhelmed, it can 'boost' the GPU frequency to 2.23GHz to give it that 10.28Tflop maximum figure that Sony has confirmed - dropping the CPU frequency and thus its power draw to use that power to speed up the frequency of the GPU

However, it could also be completely variable and fluctuate based on load. If it only needs to run at 1.8GHz for example, it could drop to that, drop to 1.5GHz if that's all that's all that's demanded or run at 2.15GHz or 2.23GHz for as long as needed - sustain that clock frequency for some time - even if that means that the CPU, which also is variable runs at say 3.0GHz for that duration. If this is the case, then it could vary from 7Tflops to 10.28Tflops in that specific title. If a game is particularly GPU heavy, that could mean the PS5 is operating at an average much closer to the quoted 10.28Tflops - the average could very well depend on the game - whether one is particularly CPU heavy or particularly GPU heavy. It could be that the cap is more Power related and once it hits its maximum power draw, if the GPU needs more power, it then has to take from the CPU but in some parts of the game, the power could be lower because both the CPU and GPU are running at lower frequencies as the game doesn't need them to run faster - thus not generating as much heat and managing its Thermals better - another thing Sony said they had been working on to minimise console noise. If a Console is running - whether that's fixed frequencies or constant balanced power draw (whether is both CPU and GPU running at a fixed figure or one running faster and the other slower) - its generating heat. If you can reduce the power draw or frequencies when its not needed for example, you reduce the heat generation without affecting the game - no thermal throttling or unnecessary fan usage.

No where has it been stated that the PS5 will operate at a set figure until such a time as it requires a 'boost' to get through a particularly heavy GPU load. No where has it said that Sony has a couple of different states (ie a 3.3GHz CPU and 2GHz GPU, a 3.1GHz CPU and 2.23GHz GPU for heavy GPU areas or a 3.5GHz CPU and a 1.8GHz GPU for heavy CPU areas) to keep the power draw 'consistent'. It states that the CPU and GPU are 'variable' and that the max speed for both is 3.5GHz and 2.23GHz. Those are its 'capped' limits and we don't know exactly how those frequencies will vary, how the frequency of one affects the other, whether or not one could run at 'maximum' boost - even if the other cannot run at its maximum if the other is. I am NOT saying that the PS5 doesn't operate in this way at all, just saying that it has not been confirmed to be running in this way and therefore it cannot be assumed or rumours believed that it will run this way.

It is entirely possible that the PS5 could run at 3.3GHz and 2GHz (9.2Tflops) in a 'balanced' mode for example with the option to boost one or the other but have to drop the other to facilitate that boost. If that is the case, then it may also be able to run a sustained 2.23GHz but the CPU would have to be limited to just 3.1GHz - thus delivering the full 10.28TFlops throughout as a 'high GPU mode and have a High CPU mode that maybe runs the GPU at 1.8GHz - meaning that the GPU is then running at 8.3TFlops. In other words, it could sustain 10.28Tflops for the entire duration of a game - just as long a the CPU operates at a reduced frequency throughout too - but that still means the PS5 can sustain 10.28Tflops - albeit with a larger compromise to the CPU frequency.

Its true that there is quite a difference between the Series X and PS5 but we really do not know how the PS5 may operate. Its entirely possible that in some games, the PS5 could well be running consistently at 10.28TFlops - even if the CPU is limited to say 3.1GHz through out so its not operating at the 9.2TFlops you mention. If it has some 'fixed' rate modes - like balanced, high CPU and high GPU - the devs could pick high GPU for example because their game doesn't need the CPU frequency and would rather push the GPU to its maximum - using Dynamic resolution scaling to manage the more demanding scenes without dropping frame rates - the GPU still running at full capacity throughout. Essentially letting the Devs decide the way the PS5 runs - a bit like some devs can on the Switch. It could also very easily vary on demand so both the CPU and GPU could well be running at much lower frequency, for example if the game is paused and not requiring very much CPU/GPU processing power so the console drops the frequencies of both to stop or at least significantly reduce any heat. In some games that may well mean the Series X has a much bigger advantage in either CPU or GPU than Sony are willing to state. If the GPU is running at a sustained 10.28TF for example, it could mean Series X has a much bigger CPU advantage or if the PS5 is operating its CPU at its maximum frequency, the GPU difference could be doubled - from ~2TF to ~4TF difference.

You stated that the PS5 runs at 9.2Tflops sustained but if a game only demands upto 3.1GHz CPU for example, then theoretically, it could run at a sustained 10.28Tflops as its balanced in terms of power draw - something that Sony said the console will be governed by power draw. If the CPU isn't drawing the power, then it could run at a sustained 10.28Tflops to keep within the power draw limitation. The PS5 could have many different settings ranging from say 8.2Tflops to 10.28Tfops and sustain any of those figures as long as the CPU doesn't change its 'power' requirements to remain at an equilibrium. Of course if the game demands more from one or the other, it could switch to a different set of parameters to get through that section but based on actual information Sony themselves have stated, its entirely possible the PS5 could run at a sustained 10.28Tflops even if that means the CPU cannot exceed a significantly reduced clock frequency that would necessitate the GPU to drop in frequency.

All I was saying is that its not right to use rumours and quote those - make out that the PS5 can only sustain 9.2TF when it could maintain the full 10.28TF if a game doesn't require the CPU to operate above a certain frequency because the power draw would allow that scenario to occur. Even if a game does require the GPU to drop to allow the CPU to speed up for a moment or two, it could still average over 10TF throughout. Therefore stating the PS5 runs at a sustained 9.2TF could very well be wrong - even if it runs at 9.2TF in a 'balanced' mode.

It seemed to me that this was 'gloating', using rumour to make the Series X appear to be more superior, trying to indicate that the PS5 could not sustain more than 9.2Tflops for any length of time - which hasn't been stated anywhere officially. It does seem that power draw itself will govern the Max speeds that both can operate at and we don't know whether other aspects of the APU also factor in - if the Audio processor isn't being fully utilised for example, will that affect the max clock speeds - if its not drawing the maximum power, can that power be used to increase the CPU or GPU a bit? If the Processors for Asset management and decompression are not being fully utilised, can that help boost the CPU/GPU a bit? There are still to many unknowns to make a sweeping statement based on rumours...

Expand

As the sustained clock speeds have NOT been revealed at all, and these are just rumoured as to how the PS5 may well operate, you have opted to use those figures in your post. I wouldn't have any issue with your opening paragraphs but then when you use these figures (whether you put 'estimated' or not) that is where I think you are wrong - at least until those figures are proven or confirmed as fact. Therefore you have not compile all the information that has been revealed this far as you state but also opted to include rumoured figures which could be entirely inaccurate.

Like I said, the PS5 could run at a Sustained 2.23GHz GPU or a Sustained 3.5GHz CPU (maybe not sustain BOTH) but it could still sustain those maximum Clock speeds indefinitely if required because its governed by Power Draw and if the CPU doesn't need to run as fast, it could use the power saved by running the CPU lower to run the GPU faster indefinitely. It may well run at the 'estimated' 2GHz and boost up if and when needed but it could also run at various other frequencies as it is 'variable'.

Nowhere has it been stated that the GPU can run at a sustained 'fixed' frequency but Sony have stated that the Frequency is variable. It may not run at any 'fixed' frequency at all and vary purely depending on load - meaning it could be constantly fluctuating up and down depending on the demand. It may not sustain a frequency at all because it is constantly changing its frequency to suit the demand - but the point I am making is that it could also run at a sustained 2.23GHz IF the CPU doesn't also need to run at a sustained 3.5GHz - for example, it could run at a sustained 2.23GHz if the CPU doesn't need to run at more than 3.1GHz - assuming that the power draw is only linked to CPU and GPU and not other parts of the APU - like Audio for example.

Its wrong to present 'estimated' and rumoured figures in my opinion. Its much better to leave those out of the comparison and certainly not include them in a 'head to head' chart as you have. The Sustained figures have no place in this at all at this point and, like I point out, the PS5 could sustain 2.23GHz and 10.28TF under certain conditions - like a CPU lighter game. Of course in that situation, you would expect the Xbox to have a bigger CPU advantage BUT it probably won't mean anything other than the fact that a lot of its processing power is not being used.

It is possible that the PS5 runs at a 'fixed' speed - like 2GHz unless it needs to 'boost' up for select moments but that has NOT been confirmed or proven. You can't say its 'estimated' either because its just based on a rumour. Its entirely possible that until Sony found out exactly how fast the Series X was going to be, they opted to use a locked 2Ghz giving that 9.2TF figure and where the rumour started BUT found a work around way to boost the GPU up to 2.23GHz by also making the CPU variable frequency, meaning that instead of giving a constant 9.2TF, it could give a constant 10.28 IF the CPU runs at a constant 'lower' clock frequency - maybe even give developers the choice to 'fix' clock speeds - pick a setting that suits their game - meaning that they could pick a high frequency GPU and low frequency CPU or vice versa. If that's the case, then you could find a high CPU demanding game resulting in a much bigger GPU gap. In other words, the Sustained frequency could vary depending on the game - whether its a GPU intensive or CPU intensive game.

Because its unknown, and because its totally possible that the PS5 can sustain more than 2GHz, its wrong to use that as a point of comparison. Its wrong to go by rumours and put 'estimated' as a way to use those rumours in the comparison. The Sustained figures shouldn't be used in this at all or at least the PS5's figures for these shouldn't be until its confirmed or proven by an independent and reliable source.

That is not 'silly' at all and I am NOT manipulating anything. You are the one who has opted to use rumour in your comparison and present the information as if its 'fact'. No where has it been stated or proven that the PS5 could not sustain 2.23GHz/10.28TF if needed. How long does a GPU need to run at its boosted speed to be considered able to Sustain that speed? Not all games will need to push the GPU consistently as the demands will vary constantly so as long as it can sustain the speed as long as necessary - like for a few seconds whilst a big explosion blows hundreds of particles in around for example, its sustained 'long' enough to handle that without having to drop before the demand on it does. The difference with the Xbox is that it may well have times when its only working at 80%, 20% of its power is not being utilised because the game isn't demanding and that same explosion pushes it up to 90% for a few seconds before dropping back down to 80%. On PS5, it could be running at 95% and that explosion would push it over 100% so boosts its speed for a few seconds to stop any bottleneck affecting frame rate and then drop back down after a few seconds - not because it can't sustain it for longer if needed, but more because it doesn't need to run at max speed and generate more heat that needs to be extracted.

There are several possibilities of how the PS5 could run - a set of 'fixed' frequencies the devs could pick - so they could pick to run the PS5 at a fixed 2.23GHz if they don't need the CPU frequency to be so high, It could run at a 'fixed' frequency (like 2GHz) and boost for a few seconds or so as and when required or it could be totally variable - change based on demand and capped at a max limit - which if the demand is equal on both CPU may well mean that the GPU is at 2GHz and say 3.3GHz CPU because the demand is such on both that it can't boost one without slowing down the other - although that would mean the GPU and CPU are constantly changing - not running at any 'sustained' frequency because the game is constantly changing. Which would really help with cooling as you don't need both CPU and GPU running flat out if you are playing a PS4 game but on Xbox, the CPU and GPU will be running flat out regardless.

I am not saying one method is better either, but merely pointing out that the PS5 has a different approach and that approach does mean that Sustained clock frequencies may not be relevant at all - because its constantly varying its Frequency based on demand. It also means that it could run at 'various' sustained frequencies as set by the developer - they could 'choose' to run the PS5 at a fixed frequency - like a Max GPU, low CPU (or vice versa) and thus sustain a 2.23GHz throughout, or it could well run at a 'fixed' frequency (like 2GHz) and boost up for 'short' moments to power through certain sequences before dropping back to a 'fixed' frequency. Until its known though, its wrong to go by rumour and use that as a point of reference for a comparison. Its better to leave the sustained figures out of the comparison.

Expand

That's NOT what I have stated at all and certainly haven't manipulated anything!! You are using RUMOUR as if its fact and even use rumours in your comparison - something you haven't used in you latest post and opted to use the FACTS that I have absolutely no problem at all with. Its the Sustained aspect that I have constantly stated should NOT be used because you have NO confirmed or accurate information.

Its NOT impossible because of the fact that the PS5 is relying on power draw to determine its frequency as stated by Sony themselves. Therefore they could Sustain 2.23GHz to get the 10.28TF consistently IF required by dropping the CPU down to a lower frequency. For example, they could drop the frequency to 3.1GHz on its CPU for as long as necessary - a whole game if required and run the GPU at the 2.23GHz consistently - therefore sustaining 10.28TF. Its not drawing anymore power than running at say 2GHz GPU and 3.3GHz CPU because they have lowered the CPU frequency and therefore the power draw to run the GPU at a consistent 2.23GHz - the power draw is the same and therefore its not contravening ANYTHING that Sony themselves stated.

Its entirely possible that 2GHz is a 'balance' point - that if the GPU needs to run faster, the CPU has to drop in frequency. Essentially move the power freed up by dropping the CPU to increase the power to the GPU to run at 2.23GHz but it could sustain that frequency indefinitely.

What Sony said is that the Console has a max frequency for both CPU and GPU and the only thing that determines how that speed is affected is power draw. Therefore its entirely feasible that the console could run consistently at the max GPU frequency IF the CPU doesn't require more power to increase the Frequency it has to now run at. There is NO reason - at least NONE given by any official source - why the PS5 couldn't run at its maximum GPU frequency for a sustained period. If the CPU doesn't need the power to run at a 'higher' frequency, then there is NO reason (at least not yet) that the GPU can't use that power to run consistently at its maximum speed!! The one reason it may not is the potential heat that could generate (although the CPU would be generating less of course) but we don't know whether the heat management could cope and Sony themselves said heat isn't a factor - its also why its so big.

The issues I have is that you are combining the official figures with rumours/speculation. The issue is with the Sustained figures that you are using!! Where does it say anywhere officially that the PS5 runs at 2GHz sustained? It states everywhere the console runs with a variable frequency so it could run at 2.23GHz sustained if the CPU isn't required to run very fast with Audio and Decompression being handled elsewhere. There is NOTHING else on the market yet that uses the same approach to Frequencies of CPU and GPU so there is NOTHING that can be compared - its ALL speculation and rumour on what the PS5 may do but until its officially confirmed how it runs, its WRONG to use Speculation in a compiled comparison.

To reiterate, the frequencies are related to power draw - as Sony stated, so it could run at a sustained max clock speed as long as the CPU doesn't require the power to run 'faster' than whatever max it can run at IF the GPU is running at max.

To try and put that into another way, lets say the CPU and GPU can only draw upto 60W of power and at 3.3GHz CPU and 2GHz as you say, the power is split 30W to each, If a game comes out that doesn't need more than 3.1GHz CPU, the PS5 could drop the CPU power down to say 25W and run at 3.1GHz and use that extra 5W to run the GPU at 2.23GHz so instead of the split being 30W to both, the split is now 25W and 35W - both still combine to draw 60W so the GPU can maintain that 2.23GHz indefinitely - therefore it is possible and therefore your 'argument' is completely wrong and why you shouldn't use rumour or speculation in this comparison. Its better to leave out the sustained figures - at least until it is known how the PS5 will operate. The fact that the limitations is power, it means it could sustain a max 3.5GHz or 2.23GHz indefinitely - as long as the other doesn't need the power to raise its (now more limited) frequency. The sustained frequency could vary on a game by game basis - games that are perhaps more GPU heavy running at max frequency more often than not and those more CPU intensive limiting the GPU to less than 9.2GHz more frequently because the PS5 is about using the Power the most efficient way rather than just running flat out at fixed frequencies. For all we know, the PS5 may not run at any frequency for more than a few seconds - constantly varying depending on the load so its always running at 100% efficiency and not generating unnecessary heat - after all, Sony stated it was variable and therefore could vary consistently - like an unlocked frame rate.