Xbox Reporter Addresses Game Pass Confusion, Says It's Still A Profitable Service In 2025

I feel like we have been over this dozens of times already.

Microsoft is not going to keep the service around for this long if it's not profitable. They are probably the most profit conscious company in the world and its been almost a decade, they would have axed this so long ago.

Let me know when it's someone in the accounting department questioning the sustainability.

Of course it is!!
Why would Microsoft have gamepass available for so long if they are losing money like mad on it and even more why would they have given us the most stacked year ever this year if it's just a drain on resources??
No doubt it will get a price increase again but even if it went up by another 5 quid a month it would still be massive value for money!
The sackings are just a nice convenient reason to blame on gamepass!!
Ignoring the fact every big company like Microsoft is run by money hungry billionaires and millionaires who just want more money especially if the company (Microsoft) is making profits like they have recently!!

@BacklogBrad Exactly. Game Pass is sustainable, and it is profitable for Microsoft. Otherwise they would have stopped adding day-one games to the service ages ago.

The reason why you are seeing price increases and changes to the service, however, is because Game Pass isn't growing at a fast-enough rate. Microsoft was expecting to hit 100m subs by 2030, but since that obviously isn't gonna happen, they're raising the price instead.

The amount of discourse this started on here and Push yesterday was horrendous haha. Should people have to delete comments that were like "I told you it wasn't profitable and is hurting the Devs"? (I'm joking of course, game pass is divisive, especially for those that don't use it)

Irresponsible reporting from Chris Dring, and as always people are better waiting for the facts than believing stuff from him. Mat Piscatella does much better industry analytics anyway!

Chris Dring is useless and him teaming up with Geoff Keighley is just rubbish for Xbox as they throw professionalism out the door to show their bias.

2 months ago he did the same thing and had to clarify then too.

Wish more people in the actual industry would call these 2 out; but I guess they don’t want to get blacklisted.

@Soup-Rules it's weird isn't it. "Game pass isn't sustainable" well now we know it is.

"Game pass is ruining the industry" PC and playstation sales prove that's not the case, very few people comparatively engage with it compared to buyers in the market.

For me, I engage when I want to and disengage when I've bought something. F2P behemoths are far worse for the industry than game pass, and it's probably what's driving a multiplatform push from the big 2!

@Coletrain @Soup-Rules It'll be interesting to see how people react lol. People are fast to beat the "anti-Xbox" drum when it suits, and then ironically look down at news like this and brush it off...

If Gamepass has been with us for so many years, it is because it works financially. Believe me, if it didn't Microsoft would have shut it down a long time ago.

Microsoft have told lots of people, lots of things. Only they know if it's profitable and they would never reveal it publicly, but they would regularly increase the price and reduce the output to save money if it wasn't.

@Kaloudz My dude😃 yeah they will give the trump excuse "FAKE NEWS"🙇

Saying they account for lost sales is meaningless when there is no accurate way to track lost sales, so it’s ultimately just a number they make up.

If Microsoft wanted to be transparent they could show full Xbox accounts but instead they obfuscate them behind the accounting practise of coupling them with unrelated departments. So, not even shareholders know if gamepass is profitable. Probably only about a dozen people in the world would actually know.

Just a reminder:

"Hi-Fi RUSH was a break out hit for us and our players in all key measurements and expectations," Greenburg said. "We couldn’t be happier with what the team at Tango Gameworks delivered with this surprise release."

People's response when Microsoft tells Dring that they determine Game Pass's profitability without factoring first-party game costs:

"I knew it! Game Pass is a failure! It's blindingly obvious that there's no way it's sustainable, and thousands of ppl's jobs were lost all because of Game Pass."

Also those same people when Dring hears from his sources that Game Pass is actually profitable, even when you factor in lost first-party game sales:

"Microsoft must be lying, what Chris Dring says isn't true."

Worth noting that Chris's latest statements don't even come from Microsoft themselves. He asked his sources at the company, so this wasn't some official PR statement or anything.

@SeaDaVie I care much more about games and playing them then going through the financial accounts of the company that makes them just so I know them I'm not an investor I'm a consumer I'm more interested in how much the new game I like costs then it's actual sales records on my console but that's just me 🕺

@SeaDaVie There is some truth in that, but it isn't completely accurate. With games like CoD, it should be pretty easy for Microsoft to determine the amount of sales they lose on Xbox and PC because of Game Pass. If BO6 sold a million copies less than MW3 on Xbox and most of those million ppl played it on Game Pass instead, that's how you know you lost sales.

Now, this is harder to do with new IPs, especially those from studios that have never released a game before. At that point it does just boil down to estimates based off of similar games. But, fortunately for this case, most of Microsoft's games are based on established franchises.

Also, Microsoft doesn't share financial data for literally any of its divisions or products. They obfuscate everything, it's not just Game Pass.

@Soup-Rules Seems like you clicked on the wrong article then, this one is about whether or not gamepass is profitable.

@Kaloudz @Soup-Rules I have nothing against playstation users, it's a great console with a cool controller, but it's success is built solely on how good PS4 games were. We all know MS screwed up last gen, and they've tried everything under the sun to win people over with limited success. And yet, we as Xbox players this gen have access to some unbelievable bargains. I'd say that's a fair trade off for a bit of a lack of Dev support at the start of the gen!

The comments sections though just become echo chambers sometimes, it's a small minority but playstation (and sometimes PC) elitism is a powerful drug; as if I wouldn't just trade the Xbox in and get a ps5 if it was a better deal for me!

@Soup-Rules Lol, you said it! I'll likely revisit this thread in a few hours just to see how people post. I always get tickled by the few that seem to agree and disagree as and when it fits the narrative. Whatever the weather, this is good news for the service IMO, but also something that was pretty much a given.

@Questionable_Duck It’s not uncommon for there to be massive growth in a franchise. God of War III sold 7.6m and God of War(2018) sold 23m+. Uncharted 3 sold 6.79m and Uncharted 4 sold 16m+. Dark souls 3 sold 10m and Elden ring sold 30m+. FH5 would probably have sold about 4-5X earlier FH games without gamepass.

The key point is the numbers are malleable enough that you can get basically any result you desire if you don’t need to publish actual accounts for it.

Another key thing about gamepass is that it’s not just lost sales from first party games that need to be accounted for, but every third party game that is on the service will also lose sales and 30% of that revenue goes to Xbox. The service existing itself very likely leads to a reduction in overall game buying, so even games not on the service will lose sales, and again that is 30% of Xbox revenue.

Any analysis of Gamepass in isolation will always be skewed by one thing or another.

@Soup-Rules I mean just look how some of them reacted to the news Helldivers 2 is coming to Xbox, they were fuming out of anger lmao starting with Sammy, the main author of Push Square who never misses the chance to throw shade at Xbox (sometimes deservedly so).

They’re so focused on cheerleading their brand they completely miss or ignore how Sony actively abuses of their dominant position and it could get much worse if MS exits the gaming market which seems to be what they want 🤦🏻‍♂️

@SeaDaVie I could be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure Microsoft has access to all the data of each individual user who buys video games and subscribes to Game Pass.

They, for instance, would probably know if someone bought Doom Eternal and Doom (2016), but didn't buy Doom: The Dark Ages and subbed to Game Pass instead. Data like that they can probably record and definitively mark as a lost sale.

They can also probably tell if someone who plays a lot of first-person shooters decides to play all the Doom games on Game Pass instead of outright buying them.

Well if they raking In 300plus million a month it's gunna be 🤣

@SeaDaVie Now, as for the part you mentioned about Game Pass leading to lost sales of games that aren't on the service, I don't think there is any credible evidence out there to support that claim. And if it does impact non-Game Pass game sales, the effect must not be significant enough to deter third-party developers from porting their games to Xbox.

I've said this a lot in previous comments, but if Game Pass really did condition Xbox users to not buy games whatsoever and wait for everything to come to Game Pass, then there likely wouldn't be a lot of non-Game Pass games on Xbox. Third-party support would have deteriorated since the introduction of Game Pass in 2017, but instead, the opposite has happened.

Now, I see how your point can be applicable to some situations, like Atlus games on Xbox. Since Atlus started supporting Xbox in 2022, almost every game from the company (except Unicorn Overlord and SMT V: Vengance) has appeared on Game Pass at some point. Sometimes day-one, sometimes months later. Some Xbox gamers may be deterred from buying Atlus games because they expect most of them to come to Game Pass. In that sense, I can see where your argument holds merit.

The thing is, though, most third-party developers/publishers don't support Game Pass as frequently and as consistently as Atlus/SEGA does. Why would an Xbox gamer, for example, be conditioned to not buy Sonic games, when there have almost never been Sonic games on Game Pass?

@Coletrain The playstation is a great console with top quality games I agree!
I also wouldn't change from Xbox either given the choice Xbox and it's ecosystem works for me!

@SeaDaVie You have me there in fairness ha✌️

The followup question should be, then are those games profitable? But for everyone clinging to the idea that of course Gamepass is profitable, if it wasn't profitable then of course Microsoft wouldn't be doing it..... The reason why they would still be doing it is for the same reason why Netflix was run at a loss for years. The same reason Youtube, Disney +, and Apple TV are still running at a loss. It's not about having to make money with it every quarter and year you're doing it, it's about the future. The idea that, eventually, it's going to turn the corner into being profitable, and then after that you're just making money with it. And as for is the whole thing going to be profitable? I think they've seen that, without adding in sales of their games on Playstation, that it won't be.

Can you explain to me what Dring said, please, because the way I read what he says is that Game Pass is only profitable when you factor in the revenue from sales of first-party games. So does that mean that if you do not factor in those sales, then Game Pass is not profitable? Does that mean that first-party games sales are propping up Game Pass?

I find what Dring says to be highly confusing and contradictory...

I think you are absolutely right to think that the Sony crew are jealous of Game Pass, @Soup-Rules. For as much as they like to criticise Game Pass because of the inclusion of day one first-party titles, were they presented with a similar service on the PlayStation, they would jump at the chance. It is only because they do not have those first-party games on their service day one that they find it so objectionable...

@Fiendish-Beaver If Microsoft had there way maybe gamepass would be on playstation???

Whilst I understand your thinking, @Gabrie, that the Service has been running for so long that Microsoft would have ended it if it were not profitable, but don't let the longevity of the Service fool you into thinking that it is doing well right now.

Let me put it another way, if in the first year it made £10 million profit, the second £9 million, the third £8 million, and then in its tenth year £1 million, then yes, it is still making a profit, but those profits are declining, and not a sign of a healthy product. My point being, that longevity does not necessarily indicate that everything is going well.

The other thing I would say, is let us assume that Microsoft wish to end the Service, and then they stop allowing people to buy subscriptions, what do they then do about those people that have up to 3 years of Game Pass stacked? If they want to stop putting their first-party games on the Service, people will rightly say that they stacked Game Pass on the promise of receiving those games on the Service, meaning that Microsoft would open themselves up to a class action. Also, if Microsoft were to say they intended to cease doing Game Pass, and to allow people to see out their stacked years, what would happen with third-party developers? They would not be inclined to put their games on a service that was shedding gamers (through natural wastage as people's subscriptions came to an end). That again would mean that people who had stacked their subscriptions could rightly argue that Microsoft had taken action that had led to the service offering less than before. Basically, even if Microsoft did want to end Game Pass right now, there is no easy (cheap!) way for them to do so as even to simply refund people's purchases would cost them billions...

@Coletrain I have nothing against PS users either. Hell I have nothing against the PS. There's a few games there that would genuinely a delight to play. I have issues with the trolls that seem to swamp the internet with noise whenever there's something bad to say about something. Still I guess it is what it is.

MS screwed up bad. Bad bad bad. I think however it was the comment "no internet? Stick with 360" that tipped people over lol. I wholly believe if Phil took the helm during 360 era, we'd be in a very different landscape.

Microsoft approached Sony and were rebuffed, @Soup-Rules. Personally, I think Game Pass will become a first-party only service within the next 5 years, and when it does, I don't think Sony will be able to stop Microsoft from putting Game Pass on the PlayStation because Microsoft would argue (rightly) that a first-party Game Pass is not different to that offered by Ubisoft or EA, etc...

And just like that people are talking about Game Pass rather than the real problems - Corporate greed and incompetence.

@Questionable_Duck You say that if Gamepass wasn't conditioning the XBox audience to not buy games then there would be plenty of 3rd party publishers not bringing their games over......what you're talking about, that's happening. The games don't sell, and so plenty of people aren't spending the money to do it.

They, for instance, would probably know if someone bought Doom Eternal and Doom (2016), but didn't buy Doom: The Dark Ages and subbed to Game Pass instead. Data like that they can probably record and definitively mark as a lost sale.

I've edited this to reply to you, @Questionable_Duck, because when I originally posted it I forgot to actually click reply for some reason! 🤪

I wonder what Microsoft would make of me then? I bought Doom and Doom Eternal, and I bought the Collector's Edition of Doom: The Dark Ages, yet I played the game on Game Pass rather than unseal my copy of the game (and that is despite the disc being the Premium version, and Game Pass being just the base version). Do you think the analytics would show that...?

@Kaloudz you know what mate you could be right, but look how many bad messages go out now and we're in the Phil era! This future pivot to a more PC focussed model is the last throw of the dice really, although it is something that will definitely work on me if done right 🤣

He seems like he wants the best for Xbox though, that message always shines through to me, even when he gets made to cull staff. I guess it's ok for me to like Phil but hate MS more generally at the moment!

@Cherrywood Name me at least three developers/franchises that stopped supporting or being released on Xbox after the introduction of Game Pass.

Most of the games that skip Xbox these days, like the ones from Falcom, NIS America, Gust, etc. were never released on Xbox at all. I can't think of many developers that stopped supporting Xbox once Game Pass was released. Instead, the opposite has happened. Atlus, RGG Studio, Level-5, Gust, MiHoYo, Bandai Namco (with franchises like Digimon Story), Hamster Corporation, Natsume, etc. are now supporting Xbox more than they ever did in the past.

Xbox is still the platform that gets the least amount of games, but it's far better now than it was compared to the Xbox One gen.

@Ernie EA and Ubisoft are only putting their own games on their services. They're not paying other publishers money to put games on their services. They're also not trying to sell those games that they are paying other publishers money for. Those are big differences from Gamepass. And Epic, yeah, they're probably paying out a lot of money just giving a game away for free every month; they can comfortably afford to do it though because they're printing money from Fortnite. It's an expense to try and build a competitor to Steam.

As others have said, Gamepass would be long gone if it wasn't making money. I don't know how much, but Microsoft is the most hard nosed of hard nosed companies. They make money, and lots of it. And if something doesn't make money, it's history.

Regarding the other conversations about the PS and Push Square, then I'd agree with the criticism of the users of Push Square. It's an absolute toilet, but any internet forum becomes the same when it gets bigger. This site goes under the radar as it is a nice size. Some of the users on Push are staggeringly, childishly biased. Personally, I love PlayStation. Had every single one except the 5 and that's due solely to Gamepass. If it was on the PS5 then that would be my console. A lot of the criticism comes from people that would LOVE to have the service on their console. I believe it's what the internet kidz label these days as 'cope' or something. Also worth pointing out the Push Square posts EVERY story that could have an anti MS stance and the comments are stacked. Yet this one is strangely absent from their site.

Anyway, I hope Gamepass continues as well as Xbox. If it doesn't, I'll continue to play on the other platforms. Life is too short to be so passionately partisan about everything. None of these huge companies are grateful for your loyalty, they're all bloody horrible. They just want your money. I've got not interest in being some billionaire's lap dog, when they don't even know I exist.

Studio's are NOT independent and are Employed by Microsoft - just like all the other employees who do NOT directly work on Games. The get a Salary, they earn money and don't 'need' to be Profitable to invest that into their next project, they may/may not get 'bonuses' based on their games success.

It's not like aa 3rd Party Studio who hopes that the 'debt' they've accrued whilst they were working to make the game can be paid off and give them enough 'funds' to go on and develop their 'next' game without building up as much debt.

Microsoft/Xbox is earning money every minute of the day - whether that's from Sub Fees, Sales (not just their OWN titles), hardware sales, etc etc. So many different streams of Revenue that more than covers the Costs of Paying ALL the staff their Salaries and costs to develop products etc.

Game Pass brings in over $4bn a year. I doubt their Studios have massive wage bills and over head costs certainly not in the $5m+ a month, but even if they had 40 studios and gave each of them $5m a month to make games for Game Pass paid entirely by Subscribers fees over time, that would still leave around 40-50% of the Sub fees to pay for 3rd Party and Indie games. Sales of games, sales of MTX, sales of LC, sales of Hardware etc are also adding to the 'Game Pass' Subs revenue.

Without Game Pass, there is a $4bn a year deficit in revenue that Sales alone would have to match - if not beat and with Prices going up, they may not sell 'many' games at $80 - people may choose to play cheap or free to play games, games with little/no cost, little/no 'revenue' stream.

I also think that Microsoft will have to consider ditching their Online/Playing with Friends fee - especially if they are looking at allowing Steam on their Hardware. People will buy CoD from steam knowing Steam doesn't charge for Online access. They maybe 'reorganising' because they will lose a 'chunk' of Game Pass Subscribers, the Game Pass Core subscribers on Console, if they don't need to sub for Online.

@CaptainCluck If it's not sustainable for them, they will cut it faster than a master chef cuts salad. Prices have risen in line with inflation and increased output (Lots of AAA releases in 2025, case in point).

The sentiment in here is comedy gold. Xbox is doing gangbusters, Microsoft would have given them the axe if they weren't profitable!! Nadella was ready to axe the entire Xbox division last gen. Phil Spencer saved it by pitching game pass. Game pass has since plateaued ar one third its subscriber goal. Nadella had game pass subscribers as one of his bonus requirements, which he removed after repeatedly failing to meet it.

@BacklogBrad I was going to say something very similar (to your first comment). If Game Pass weren’t profitable then it wouldn’t have survived for this long in its current form. It really is as simple as that I think. Xbox is no charity.

Microsoft have no qualms shutting down studios, making employees redundant, cancelling games, raising prices of hardware and games all in the name of the sacred profit margin. They are cutthroat. I don’t see why Game Pass would be an exception to this rule.

@Coletrain you know what mate you could be right, but look how many bad messages go out now and we're in the Phil era!

Yeah I'm with you on that. They certainly need to be a hell of a lot more consistent. I'm of the mindset that Phil isn't the 'boss' (so to speak) he once was - either that, or he's had a leash put round his neck sometime in the last few years.

I could be wrong, but man, he looks hella fed up lately lol and tired.

@Scrubchub Very well said👏

@EfYI that's some nice balance there dude, well said.

As someone who loves game pass, if I'm going to be critical, it definitely drives consumer behaviour away from buying newer games that aren't on game pass UNLESS they're popular or 9 and 10s. I'm not sure it's bad for the industry at the moment because the reach is quite low compared to PS and PC users, but IMHO if PS were to adopt the exact same model it would be an issue because that would drive the same consumer behaviour en masse. It's not something I want to continue long term really, but it's a hell of a ride!

@Kaloudz yeah, it's hard to believe that he would be pulling the strings on such a massive job cut. I could see him being the one to pull the plug on PD (boooo!) and everwild as GAMES (not closing the initiative as a studio though), but turn 10? That's gotta be higher up coz that one is cruel!

@Fiendish-Beaver were they presented with a similar service on the PlayStation, they would jump at the chance. It is only because they do not have those first-party games on their service day one that they find it so objectionable...

I think both can be true at once. GP is a good deal for the consumer, provided you like the games. People can take advantage of it when its offered, they can also believe its ultimately harmful for the industry in the long run. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

@SeaDaVie again Jesus go look at attach rates for console, average console has 8 games attached, those 8 games maybe bought in sale and only a couple will be first party, so for most of those MS will only get 30% of the sale price, now if they lock you into game pass at the cost of 2 full games a year or 3 to 4 not over a console gen thst uz the equivalent to 16 full priced games, yes there are additional costs but the majority of non 1st part games are Indie, AA or older games so the cost of getting them on the service is low.

I totally agree with you, @Ilyn, and the truth is that many people are hypocrites. The guys in blue will happily berate those in green for their love of Game Pass, and will decry the damage to the games industry in the same breath. However, presented with the same chance, they would be falling over themselves to subscribe. Hypocritical, but absolutely true...

I couldn't care less whether it was profitable or not. I couldn't care less if PS Plus Plus was profitable or not. You know who I DO care if they're profitable? Me. As long as they offer services that allow me to enjoy my hobby and keep MY bank account in the black, I couldn't give two ****s what a trillion dollar company's profit margins look like.

@Valhura It’s not like these 2 revenue streams are mutually exclusive. Not putting day one games on Gamepass does not automatically mean you no longer make this subscription revenue. From Sony accounts they made $4.5B from subscription services last year and still sold 303.3m units of software. The question is how much revenue is lost by downgrading the service. People still paid for multiplayer before gamepass existed.

Also, your attachment rate is out of date as the PS4 has sold close to 2b units of software, it was over 1.4b when they stopped splitting the figures in Q3 2020. You’re also comparing the average person(via attachment rate) to an extreme example of someone that subscribes to gamepass at full price all year long. That’s not the average gamepass player.

Who is he? Shall I be convinced now?

So it's making money, yet a whole bunch more Studios and games get cancelled..? Yeah I call BS.

@Coletrain I just see him as a guy that loves games, but that excitement he had when he took over as the boss, it just doesn't seem to be there anymore. He still champions a lot of things, but the drive he once had seems minute. Yeah I agree. I mean, I don't know the ins and outs, but I do think the higher ups told him to trim the fat one way or the other, so the dude had to make some decisions about where the fat gets cut from.

Yeah he's deffo a gamer. A well paid one though 🤣 also, it has started to feel like he's slowly winding down to hand the reigns to Sarah Bond...

Oh, and so I don't have to trawl back to find an old thread, regarding an older discussion we had about E33: now played it, amazing. It's kinda what I wish final fantasy would be!