Forums

Topic: General Xbox Series X Thread

Posts 881 to 898 of 898

Senua

@BAMozzy There’s a good reason why Series X was able to render more pixels and produced an overall sharper image without using any form of CB. The developers probably didn’t find it necessary to implement checkerboarding for the Series X version to achieve similar performance target. Also once they start implementing optimisation features of Dx12 Ultimate and XVA, it will cleanup any occasional performance drops. Anyways I hope we get to see a DLSS-like solution very soon which right now looks even better than native rendering let alone old techniques like CB.

Edited on by Senua

Senua

BAMozzy

@Senua Not denying that there is likely to be a good reason that Xbox can push out more pixels but that doesn't always mean that its going to be the best image quality or best use of the available resources. In most cases, not all, CB Rendering is a better choice than native - hence its used.

DLSS obviously punches well above its weight too. The 4x increase isn't as good as native 4k but the 1440p results, in some areas, does look sharper and cleaner - but then it does have more info for DLSS to work with. Unless games utilise DX12 ML specifically to do something similar, it looks as though this will be limited to nVidias and AMD's Fidelity FX Super Resolution (FSR) is very different and doesn't use Machine Learning.

Based on what we have seen so far, CB implementations have varied and at its best, can be almost indistinguishable from Native at normal seating distances and in motion - its only when you get up close and study a 'still' - and often only after a transition because there isn't the information from prior frames to use.

DLSS is improving too and both of these techniques offer a tangible upgrade over running the game with a 'Native' resolution. Both improve the Image Quality without negatively impacting on the performance. If the PS5 version were using 'Native' resolutions, it would look worse or, if it matched the Xbox on Resolution, perform worse. DLSS lets gamers run games at say 1440p or 1080p but get a 4k image out without the performance hit running natively would do.

Essentially, all these methods are ways to 'upscale' a game running a lower resolution in engine. If you have a game running at 1440p for example, you can upscale to 4k, spread the pixels out evenly and interpolate to fill in the gaps. Use CB Rendering to render 'half' the image every frame and pull the rest from the previous frame - theoretically more accurate because you are using the pixels rendered rather than 'interpolating'. DLSS uses ML to 'predict' what the 'missing' pixels should be - the more info it has, the more accurate its prediction can be. DLSS is 'currently' the best because its predicting what colour each 'missing' pixel should be, CB is next because the image is already the right size (so no fine detail loss) and has previous frames to help ensure that the right pixels are used and the traditional method is the worst because all the gaps are interpolated.

If you have a Black pixel next to a White one, DLSS and CB would pick a 'black' or 'white' pixel (depending on the overall image) to fill in a 'gap' due to 'lower' OR CB type rendering, but a standard upscale would make that pixel grey - interpolating from the black on one side and white on the other. That's why things look 'softer' because the hard edge is gone. This is why these methods are 'better' than rendering the same pixel count and upscaling. If you haven't got a device capable of offering DLSS, at the moment, CB rendering is the 'next' best.

Obviously if you can render at 1800p and above with decent visual settings and still get the performance metric you want, its pointless to consider CB rendering. If you want to boost visual settings to the Max (or add RT for example) or increase the frame rate further, CB rendering is a better choice for a 4k Display than sacrificing the resolution to 1440p (or lower). Rainbow Six Siege uses CB to deliver a '900p' image on XB1, 1080p on PS4 and 60fps. That's essentially 800x900p on XB1 but the image quality is much better than the in-engine game is producing every frame.

Variable Rate Shading is almost the opposite of upscaling. What that does is look at the image, where the player is most focused and what areas are in shadow, in motion etc and reducing the resolution where it can. Instead of processing every single 4k pixel, some will be a '2x1' block, some a '1x2' block and others can be a 2x2 block - essentially a single pixel at 1080p. The Sky for example 'could' be 1080p, some shadows 'half' 4k and your character in the middle of the screen, native 4k. Another way of 'reducing' the workload for the GPU but instead of reducing the resolution 'evenly', this is more selective - reducing the resolution in areas that have minimal, if any impact and shouldn't be noticeable because the player isn't focussed on these areas.

There is a LOT of potential in the future and a lot of the technologies are either about 'boosting' the image quality of lower resolutions or reducing the quality of things to free up resources when running at higher resolutions. Mesh Shading is also reducing the quality (reducing the polygon count depending on where it is on screen and/or perceived distance away) and even culling objects too if they are behind another object. Of course you don't want a meteor with 10m polygons that only takes up about 100pixels on screen because its so far away but like VRS, these are about not wasting resources on things that the player can't 'see' or not looking at - being 'more' efficient with what does matter.

I am sure if you have a massive screen and can look really close, you may see some areas that look a bit lower res (VRS) or not as detailed/shapely (mesh shading - assuming it would run with no reductions - but realistically, the Dev would no doubt make a lower quality asset that gets swapped out at a certain point)

Point is, all these things are to make the image look and/or run better than the hardware alone could offer with Native resolutions. If you can't get a 'native' 4k 60fps, you can reduce the overall image quality and use CB, DLSS etc to make it look like its running at a 'higher' resolution or you reduce the Resolution or Polygon counts of specific areas or objects to reduce the amount of time processing those. If you can run the game at a Native 4k 60fps with decent settings, then you don't 'need' any of these. Add RT to that game, and then to keep 60fps, they can reduce the overall res and 'boost' image quality with CB/DLSS etc or reduce the res/quality of 'elements' to free up enough resources to get back to 60fps and that's what ALL these things do.

Its certainly going to be interesting. 4k is a massive jump up and these technologies really will help games. Native resolutions are not necessarily the best use of resources. As other games have shown, CB rendering can be incredibly close but not every developer/game engine does it as well as others. All these technologies though are about pushing the visuals and/or the performance beyond what the hardware could without them. The PS5 version is still better because it uses CB rendering than it would of been had the devs opted for a native resolution. I'd expect a 1440-1600p game without and the upscale on that would look noticeably worse - therefore, you would have to say they made the right choice...

A pessimist is just an optimist with experience!

Why can't life be like gaming? Why can't I restart from an earlier checkpoint??

Feel free to add me but please send a message so I know where you know me from...

Xbox Gamertag: bamozzy

LtSarge

People have been saying that Xbox generally doesn't have a large presence in Japan. Today I saw this in my subscription feed on YouTube and it seems to me that Microsoft is trying to put in more effort in promoting Game Pass in Japan now if this is any indication on that.

Some background: the person above is a Vtuber (Virtual YouTuber), i.e. a real life person who uses a smartphone app in order to portray themselves as a 2D model of an original anime-like figure. This is a phenomenon that started just a couple of years ago in Japan and has become increasingly popular over the years all over the world. So it's no wonder that Microsoft is trying to use that popularity to promote Game Pass, which will reach both Japanese but also Western consumers.

@FraserG Maybe this is something interesting to write about on the site?

LtSarge

FraserG

@LtSarge Very interesting! I'll have a look into it further

Fraser Gilbert
News Editor at Pure Xbox
www.purexbox.com

XBL: Just1MoreGameXB
Twitter: @_Just1MoreGame

Xbox Gamertag: Just1MoreGameXB | Twitter:

TheFrenchiestFry

I can definitely see xCloud being a big thing that gets Game Pass to click with Japanese audiences. It's not the same as dedicated portable hardware but mobile gaming in general is still a major pull for that region

It also seems that these days some of the big Japanese publishers like SEGA and Square Enix are starting to pour more resources into Xbox development and getting their games on that platform even if it's later than what PlayStation or Nintendo get from them immediately

TheFrenchiestFry

BAMozzy

A pessimist is just an optimist with experience!

Why can't life be like gaming? Why can't I restart from an earlier checkpoint??

Feel free to add me but please send a message so I know where you know me from...

Xbox Gamertag: bamozzy

TheFrenchiestFry

It's not a LEAK

It's a RUMOR. I'm pretty sure the guy who wrote that article also specifically clarified he couldn't confirm whether the deal between KojiPro and Xbox had even been finalized yet

TheFrenchiestFry

Senua

1. JEFF GRUB is not any guy. His sources have lot of credibility. He’s not one of those resetera frauds.
2. Phil Spencer doesn’t f around with nothing. All those stuff in background is not without valid reasons.
3. The point of posting this video is about that potential rumour of Battlefield 6 coming to Gamepass Day 1 this year.

Edited on by Senua

Senua

TheFrenchiestFry

@Senua This isn't me disregarding his credibility, but he explicitly said it could not even be confirmed whether the deal was finalized for Microsoft to publish Kojima Productions' next game, so calling it a "leak" when nothing's even been settled between the two parties yet is super clickbaity even if there's evidence to suggest they have at least talked about things behind the scenes like the LUDENS figure in Phil Spencer's room

As of right now, no such game actually exists. We know Kojima is working on a new game, but we also know he's had an iteration of that game cancelled before earlier in the year, so nothing is factual or confirmed yet. Talks could break down at any time

TheFrenchiestFry

Senua

We will see about that. In Phil we trust.

Senua

Dezzy

So any idea when the next batch of 60fps patches is coming? Kinda wish they were doing them a bit faster really. They've got thousands of potential games to go through after all....

It's dangerous to go alone! Stay at home.

Grumblevolcano

@Dezzy It's already off track from what they said, back in February they said every couple of weeks but there's only been 2 batches so far.

  • 1st batch - February 17th
  • 2nd batch - March 15th

So perhaps the new setup is every month?

Grumblevolcano

Xbox Gamertag: Grumble Volcano

Top

Please login or sign up to reply to this topic