For most gamers, Xbox Game Pass has been a hugely positive force. It allows us to access more games for a lower price, without having to commit to as many individual purchases. However, the model is starting to worry some indie devs, especially after the Activision Blizzard deal.
In a BBC report, several indie developers spoke about the deal and what it might mean for them. Tanya Short, who worked on indie hit Boyfriend Dungeon, said she worries that Activision and Game Pass might see the likes of Call of Duty dominate for even longer.
"This Activision acquisition strikes fear in us because it makes it so much more obvious - maybe they could dominate the rest of the year and then what do we do?"
So, some devs are worried that more AAA content on Game Pass will hurt indie discoverability. For others, it's the prospect of players not wanting to buy their games outside of Xbox Game Pass. Yura Zhdanovich, founder and game director at Sad Cat Studios ponders whether in future, indies will get attention outside of subscription services.
"Conceivably, indie games outside of these services might lose engagement as subscribers focus most of their attention on games they can access for free within the service..."
Xbox's Sarah Bond counters these points, with a data-driven example. Bond told the BBC that 60% of those who tried Human Fall Flat on Game Pass had never played a puzzle game before, and 40% of those players then went on to buy another puzzle game.
Do you think more AAA titles on Game Pass will hurt indies? Let us know below.
[source bbc.co.uk, via videogameschronicle.com]
Comments 39
The answer is yes. It's not even an opinion. Look at Netflix. Or any digital game store. The more you have, the less lime light other games will get. Your indie game will get one slot in the "recently added" section and then that's it. Unless it gets special promotion... which "indie hit" Boyfriend Dungeon (lol! nice one, Ben) did get a special seat at the table.
There are 25 million GP subs without CoD being on the service. I highly doubt everyone will suddenly stop playing indies when those ActiBlizz games eventually get added.
It’s all new to gaming and will need some ironing out.
I just hope the big AAA games from Microsoft studio are up to Sony and Nintendo efforts and they don’t down grade them or release them early because they are on game pass. You now, well it’s sort of free on gamepass so we can reduce the quality, size and scope etc.
just look at Halo Infinite, I enjoy and play but not near a BOTW or HZD etc etc overall.
@Shigurui Exactly. It's not any different than EA Play getting added to Game Pass Ultimate. With the addition of Activision Blizzard games, more people will subscribe to Game Pass but that doesn't necessarily mean that the amount of people who play indie games will go down. It just means that Game Pass will have more subscribers who specifically want games like Call of Duty and who were only going to play CoD anyway.
At the moment I think Game Pass has been a positive thing for most of those indies that pass the bar and make it on to the service. There's obviously a few that won't be as happy but that's normal. Can't please everyone.
I think the chief concerns are:
1) What about the indies games that DON'T make it onto Game Pass? I know both myself, and anecdotally, Game Pass subscribers buy less than they used to once we have Game Pass. I didn't buy Death's Door or The Forgotten City, despite rave reviews, when I would have in the past. Thankfully they made it to Game Pass. But what of the ones that don't. I haven't bought Chicory for example.
2) What if less indie games are invited to Game Pass once they start to produce more games and fill their schedule with more first party?
3) IF Game Pass and subscription services hit ubiquity and become the norm that gives an awful lot of power to the platform holders to further dictate deals with indies. Will they see less return?
If we're being honest no one knows the answers to these yet, it's all new ground. But they are all valid concerns. We'll just have to see how it plays out and continue to try and keep corporations accountable.
GamePass or not, indie games always have a problem with discoverablity. Smaller games need strong word of mouth or good reviews to get notice. There’s literally thousands of games on Xbox and PSN that I will never know existed. And GP isn’t the problem. It can be the solution for many devs.
These are fair concerns to have. Perhaps Microsoft could have something like summer of arcade from the 360 era to highlight indies on the service that can stand out? Or kind of like how Playstation did recently with putting Sifu heavily in the spotlight in some of their recent presentations. Hopefully they will figure something out.
I think the point here is that GP hasn't been good for indie games on the whole. There's a stat on the number of indie games on GP versus the number of Indies games available and it's miniscule (not sure if it's part of this original article or somewhere else). I'm sure it's great for that tiny group that are benefiting but not for the bulk.
This article snippet seems to focus on Indie games not making sales because people prefer to stick with games in GP. I'm certainty part of that group. General consensus is how great a value GP is but if you then spend money on other games outside of GP then there is no value.
Perhaps it's similar to people that no longer buy/rent films as much because they get their fill with Netflix and others.
Still think Film and music industry are going through similar questions but are perhaps ahead in the process.
I find unlike my friends who end up just playing one or two AAA games as they've just bought them, I cycle between playing an AAA and indie games - I find something like Unpacking great for an early morning where I'm too out of it for a AAA epic.
I rarely buy AAA games any more as the ones I bought near the XSX launch seriously disappointed me (AC: Valhalla, I hated compared to Odyssey, WD: Legion just was a bit shallow and Cyberpunk I don't even need to explain) - I'll usually wait for Game Pass or a sale as it's just not worth the risk.
Instead, with the money saved from Game Pass - and in particular the money from MS Rewards - I end up either purchasing the games I really love on Game Pass (or their add ons) or spending more money on indie games (plus a few older AAA games on sale).
I bought The Forgotten City and Lake before they were on Game Pass, plus a few other indies that haven't reached GP yet - games I'd never have looked twice at before.
If anything Game Pass has taken me from someone who spent hundreds a year on AAA games and instead made me someone who spends hundreds mostly on indies!
Why would MS drop COD annual release? Lets be honest. I see a lot of wishful thinking with revival of IPs, but is Xbox really dropping the annual COD that will make Gamepass potentially grow to 40m eventually? They're dropping that for... Crash that didn't sell? Spyro is probably a bit less popular so that would sell about the same. Tony Hawk? Idk.
I get these indies devs have a worry about getting skipped.
I kind of understand what they mean, but I doubt MS really wants to repel smaller devs so with more content there could be more discoverability options added to alleviate those concerns.
@RevGaming Let me ask you something: how come Microsoft aren't just making deals with all AAA studios to add their games on Game Pass instead of adding a bunch of indie titles as well? Surely if they have $70 billion to spend on a publisher, they have enough money to add basically all major AAA games on Game Pass and not have all these indie games on there.
The reason is simple: they need variety to appeal to all kinds of consumers. Some people like first-person shooters, some like JRPGs, others like indies. In order for Game Pass to succeed, Microsoft is going to need variety. You can't buy a publisher like Activision Blizzard and only utilise their Activision studios to create Call of Duty every year. Sure they'll get tons of new subscribers in the short run, but in the long run they're going to need all these different games in order to appeal to everyone, not just the CoD audience. Because that's Microsoft's goal, they want everyone to subscribe to Game Pass and not everyone plays Call of Duty.
@themightyant but we do know gamepass users on average spend more on games then non gamepass members. And this isn't just games leaving game pass.
The best example of this is Yakuza like a dragon did better then expected on Xbox due to fans of the other games being in gamepass
And yes not everyone is going to spend more on gamepass some may spend less.
On topic as some have said I cannot see Xbox not putting indies on due to the avb purchase. They are an important part of gamepass, on conversation points. also to pad the amount of games hitting every 2 weeks.
@LtSarge
Oh, because AAA games sell better on Playstation (especially Japanese published games) and Playstation could outbid them. Yes, they can in this case because it also ruins their next sequels if this one doesn't sell well, even if they got a lot of money from MS. Both Sony having 2:1 ratio with PS4/PS5 and xbox users not buying games because they're getting used to Gamepass, gives a leverage for timed exclusives for PS5, even if MS had more money. Why would MS take a loss for a game that won't sell as good. Ask Tomb Raider or look at the first comment.
They need variety, of course I agree with you, but COD is so damn big that I don't think they'll release a COD every 3-4 years. Maybe they will make Crash, Spyro and Tony Hawk, but people were saying stuff like Guitar Hero and Pitfall. What???! It's like saying Sony will bring back Jak n daxter and Sly Cooper and Nintendo is bringing Star Fox and F-Zero. Not happening brother.
Discovery for indie games have been an issue since they did away from Xbox Live Arcade.
As is when you see a new indie game it is ge really because it was added to Gamepass instead of just finding it.
What stops me playing indies is for me they are usually crap or at least not to my preferences to put it more politely.. It doesn't matter if they are on gamepass or not they usually don't appeal so I don't go near them regardless
That said I would not want Indies to disappear from gamepass or the Xbox ecosystem in general. My preference are my own and other folks like other things so having a wide variety of choice helps engage everyone.
Will a flood of Activision games to gamepass overshadow indies yes at least for a little while but not everyone will want to play them so they will still need that depth of choice which will still include indie games.
@Dezzy70 Just look at Halo Infinite? Boy look at Anthem, F76, BF2042, Lawbreakers, Avengers, Battlefront 2...
Somebody needs to up the bar in multiplayer games and I hope Sony and Microsoft are the ones because I'm getting tired of those games...
oh look.. Siege, Destiny, Division, No Man Sky came to mind with bad launches too.
Multiplayer games need a new bar to reach. This is getting stupid.
and Free to Play games dodge the bullet because they're free, but don't say most of them have released with a lot of content lol.
@RevGaming "It's like saying Sony will bring back Jak n daxter and Sly Cooper and Nintendo is bringing Star Fox and F-Zero."
It's not the same thing at all though because both Sony and Nintendo still heavily use the sales model while Microsoft is more focused on the subscription model, which opens up more possibilities for developers. This is actually something that I've been arguing about on the forums, here's a link if you wish to read my arguments in full and maybe even post a response: https://www.purexbox.com/forums/px_other_gaming/do_you_think_the_sales_model_and_rising_budgets_are_killing_creativity_in_the_gaming_industry
The short version is that it's much more likely we'll see different and unique games coming from Microsoft than from Sony and Nintendo in the future because of Microsoft's subscription model. Developers don't have to worry about games selling poorly anymore. As long as the subscriber count for Game Pass keeps rising, they can keep making all kinds of games for Game Pass. Just look at Playground Games who makes Forza Horizon, I would've never guessed that they'd be making a Fable game next. I didn't even think Microsoft cared about the Fable series anymore. Or how about The Initiative, who's making a new Perfect Dark game. When was the last time Microsoft actually cared about a Rare IP? And speaking of which, we got a new Battletoads game in 2020, which a lot of people seem to have forgotten about.
And that's only the beginning. Obviously, it's up to the studios to decide what they want to make and maybe not everyone wants to make something different. But the option is at least there. So it's absolutely not unreasonable to ask for IPs like Guitar Hero or Pitfall to be revived when that's part of Microsoft's strategy.
It’ll never be as bad as the switch store 🤣
I’m sure more can be done to highlight indies and it should be. I play more of them now than AAA games. The little guys need the visibility.
@Terrin "but we do know gamepass users on average spend more on games than non-gamepass members."
I've complained about this non-metric before. If you think about it logically and put it another way it's just saying:
"Players who are engaged enough to subscribe to Game Pass spend more on average than a typical player who doesn't"
Well of course they do! It's a classic bit of misdirection. Penn & Teller would be proud.
Far more useful would be whether those Game Pass players spend more or less than they used to.
I agree about games being on Game Pass getting additional sales. it can definitely help boost other sales. We've seen it before with things like Rocket League and Fall Guys on PS+ too. Being a larger part of the conversation means more sales, it doesn't happen in a vacuum.
That's why I said no one knows the long term answers to this yet. That doesn't stop there being valid concerns, but that's all they are. For now we just have to plough ahead and hope for the best, making sure we keep companies honest and don't let it deteriorate to the detriment of developers.
There are around 4,000 Android games on the Switch shop. Is that any better? I barely play "indie" games and it's thanks to Game Pass that I have found some that I like and, if I like them enough, I'll buy them. Actually, I don't own any indie game on Switch but I own some on Xbox.
@LtSarge
Well they still have to make games to maintain subs though. Xbox can't be making niche or average games. Gamepass shouldn't be the excuse for that. It gives them the risk-free, I get it, but I still think Xbox will focus on mass appeal titles.
I can agree that Sony's new IPs won't be something out of the norm. It will be unique in some ways, but I don't think they'll make something weird like Death Stranding, which didn't sell that well. Sony needs RPG, Horror, Fighting and FPS because those pull numbers, but genres like 2D platformer, sims, rts, strategy, arcade are just too small these days. I wouldn't play those personally.
I think having the mentality of not worrying a game doesn't need to sell as much creates this lazyness. I hope that's not the case. I disagree that it shouldn't be that way. Devs need to feel they need to hit off out the park.
Eh, Perfect Dark is a FPS and Fable a third person action adventure game. I don't see what's the difference there from what Sony is focusing on.
There are games like Stray, Sifu, Little Devil Inside, Kena so I don't get that point either.
edit: Oh and VR games.
I think the fear is slightly founded, however, I think it's largely an irrelevant argument. The big GaaS games, CoD, Fortnite (F2P!), WoW, GTAV, Minecraft, Destiny, etc ARE platforms already. The people that are engaging with those games heavily are already all-in on engaging with them primarily. Whether they're on GP or are $60, the people getting into those games are dedicated and either were also buying/playing indie games, or were not going to at all. IDK if putting them on GP or not really affects indie sales at all. I'd argue that pushes from companies like Sony and even Square to shift more into GaaS and try to get into that "locked" player model are a bigger threat to indies, than putting existing ones on Game Pass is.
If anything, with the Activision deal, I'd thing the liklihood of more Spyro, Crash, Quake campaigns, SoF, Guitar Hero, Starcraft, etc. etc. etc. is a bigger GP threat to indies, just more availability of higher quality more polished single player or small experience games, than any big service platform game like CoD is. But.....I don't think indies lamenting "Microsoft now can make so many great games for their service, how can we compete?" is necessarily a worry that should exist....if anything it speaks of oversaturation of the industry and underutilization of major studios that gave tiny studios too big a spotlight.
@NEStalgia Yep, basically that kind of player already exists. The kind of player who is "subscribed" $60 per year/generation to FIFA, Call of Duty, Fortnite, GTA or Sea of Thieves.
@Banjo- The unsung heroes for me are the curation team on Game Pass. There is almost no dross. There will be games you might not like, that's normal, but virtually every game deserves to be there and has an audience.
Some are a little average but have a quirk or unique element that makes them worth a go. Exo One springs to mind.
Others may be Janky AF, cult hits or for a niche audience like Goat Simulator.
But the vast majority are just good games. The curation is one of my favourite aspects of it. Very rare I play a game on Game Pass and think this is awful.
@themightyant TBH I think the gamer that buys lots of indie games is generally going to be a snobby elite type gamer anyway. The value ratio on indies is terrible as a consumer, and the typical gamer just isn't throwing that kind of money at tons of indies, so I don't think as an average there's a lot of spend reduction due to game pass on indies. Big 1st party blockbusters? Sure. Indies, not really. Only within a small "elite" group of gamers that are financially insignificant in the bigger picture.
Despite some disgruntlement with where AAA has been going, and a lot of support for indies, the one thing that has been constant is that the industry is simply oversaturated. There are far more studios making more games than there are consumer dollars and hours to pay for it all, and whether it's subscriptions or retail, someone's going to have to take falls for it, whether it's Boyfriend Dungeon or BF2042, attrition will reduce the amount of games/studios out there because there's simply oversupply in the extreme.
Indie games aren't what drives subscriptions, and I think if GP were to become a big indie spotlight, as some indies seem to want to perceive it as, it would fail fast enough. Somehow that worked for Nintendo, but Nintendo is Nintendo, and mobile/Apple Arcade is probably a much better spotlight for that type of market. Indies are something subscribers for bigger games might pick up here and there and give a try.
PERSONALLY, I'd mostly like to get rid of "AAA" and "Indie" in general. Both are failures in my mind. AAA has gone over-budget, far beyond what can sustain it, and more and more moves into services to try to justify their expense and monetize it into something that isn't gaming necessarily. Indie OTOH tends to be pretentious, ambitious, and underdeveloped as the budgets just don't allow a complete product to be made, most of them come across as excellent proofs of concept that you wish could have been developed into real games. I think long term, maybe 10, 20, 30 years we'll see some form of attrition that starts decimating most of the big budget AAA's and starving most of the arthouse indies, and mergers and upsizing/downsizing will lead to a more entrenched AA space, bigger than indie, smaller than blockbuster games....like basically we used to have 20 years ago. Financially that's really the only place that makes long term stable sense.
Agreed on curation though. That made Switch's eShop stand out early on, but that faltered fast. Still, I play, MAYBE an indie a year on Game Pass? And usually just for 1-4 hours before moving onto some other bigger game from the backlog, either Game Pass or purchased. Games like The Gunk are nice sized, but still feel somewhat "small." And that's arguably more of an AA to begin with.
@Dezzy70 Halo started development before Game Pass even existed. That's the depressing thing about 343 and Infinite. That game would have been the same shambling mess even if there were no such thing as Game Pass. Imagine paying $60 for that.....or $70!
@RevGaming Different games doesn't mean niche and average titles. It means games that appeal to different audiences. By appealing to different people, Microsoft will attract all kinds of consumers to their service. Games like Fable, Perfect Dark etc. wouldn't be in the works right now if it weren't for Game Pass making that possible. Now Game Pass will appeal to an audience who likes Fable, who likes Perfect Dark, and in the future to an audience who likes Crash, Spyro, Tony Hawk and/or Guitar Hero. All of those together will bring in a huge amount of subscribers in total. Individually, not as much, but collectively they will make a huge difference in the long run. Microsoft will also earn a lot of good will from fans for focusing on these franchises and that in turn means loyalty, which leads to people staying subscribed.
I mean, I would definitely stay subscribed to Game Pass if the release schedule looked something like this on an average year: Fable in January, Perfect Dark in February, Crash Bandicoot in March, Spyro in April, Hellblade II in May, Tony Hawk in June, Redfall in July, Gears 6 in August, Deathloop in September, Scorn in October, Starfield in November and Stalker 2 in December. It's obviously not going to look like that for the next few years, but if they keep acquiring more studios then it's looking more and more likely that an average year will look like that, maybe five years down the line or something.
Honestly, for dedicated indie gamers and curious gamers in general, I doubt it’ll change much about who plays what on Gamepass other than there may be more subs meaning more potential players. People play the games that get good reception, whether that’s by reviews, word of mouth, how they like the icon art, whatever. I think the Activision acquisition is beneficial for all parties. I mean, when Carto was on Gamepass, for instance, would CoD being on Gamepass really have taken away a Carto player? I doubt it.
@themightyant Yep, I like discovering games on Game Pass, even if I don't love all of them but the quality is usually good.
@LtSarge
My bad. I thought you meant variety as in 2d, top down, arcade games. Stuff like that. Then I agree.
"Games like Fable, Perfect Dark etc. wouldn't be in the works right now if it weren't for Game Pass"
Sony made Ratchet, why would Crash and Spyro be far fetched?
Damn that potential list for a year is enormous, but I doubt dev cycles align like that. Plus we don't know if all 12 would be good. Gamepass or not, I don't want to waste my time or $15 ($60 in my case) for a game I won't enjoy.
@RevGaming Because Microsoft didn't really care about making first-party games until they adapted Game Pass as a business model. They had like four first-party studios and relied mostly on third-party titles to keep Xbox going. They even shut down Fable's original developer Lionhead Studios because Fable Legends turned out to be a mess. If they had actually cared about first-party titles, they wouldn't have done that and some people from Microsoft actually stated in the recent Xbox documentary that they regret shutting down Lionhead now that they have Game Pass, which needs more exclusives.
Not to mention they wouldn't have had any studios to work on other games. 343 was making Halo, The Coalition was making Gears, Turn 10 was making Forza, Rare was making Kinect Sports and Lionhead was shut down. Who were going to make those aforementioned games, especially after the 2013 fiasco where barely anyone was buying an Xbox One? Microsoft acquired Playground because of Game Pass and built a new studio "organically" with The Initiative, also because of Game Pass.
At the end of the day, Microsoft wouldn't have bothered making games with different IPs if it weren't for Game Pass. In fact, Xbox probably wouldn't even be around today if it weren't for Game Pass.
@LtSarge I disagree. I don't think Gamepass is why they got more studios. I think they would have acquired them anyways because they needed some. Playground was organic too. Undead Labs too.
Nah, we can't tell, but I seriously doubt Gamepass is the reason.
I just watched Nintendo games sales. I think Xbox would prefer to have those numbers than have a bleeding money service lol. Plus the profit of those games that don't cost as much? OOOFFF
Even Playstation is trying to get there with horizon and god of war but they won't.
I think Xbox can drop the day 1 Gamepass thing. They have Call of Duty now that sells 20m every year.
Until I had Game Pass I only played AAA games. Had never considered Indie, known about the games or had any interest. Since Game Pass, I’ve actually found that Indie games are the ones I love the most. I nearly exclusively play the Indie titles and although I have bought and downloaded AAA titles, I rarely play them now.
Game Pass has totally opened my eyes to an area of the market I just didn’t know existed before.
I try most games that come to Game Pass. I still buy games. Game Pass substantially helps me out because I love to try different games and genres and never know what I want to play until I sit down. But I can get dragged into games and I don't finish much. There is still so many games I'll never play. Every medium is saturated and that comes with everything eating at our free time and population and ease of access. Much easier to post your painting, share your game, make music, post a video then ever before.
I dont think they should worry about discoverability within Game Pass. There is plenty of stuff in there to get lost in, but Game Pass does a good job at keeping indies highlighted, I feel.
The part that is of concern is indeed the part about being concerned that players slowly will refuse to buy games and instead wait until they eventually end in Game Pass. That is already a thing and the expectation will likely just grow. Normally this would not be a big deal, but its not like just anyone can get their games into Game Pass. Microsoft is picky on who is offered a spot.
For me personally Game Pass has been great when it comes to Indie games as I've played a bunch I'd wanted to in the past, but never did (Firewatch is a good example). And also I've played ones I've never heard of, but looked interesting, and loved them.
Though is this good for developers? Spotify is great for listeners (and Spotify) as you get a bunch of songs available for free/a small monthly fee, but the actual artists get paid a fraction of a penny per song.
What's the deal for developers when it comes to Game Pass? People ask how MS can make a profit on such a small sub price (plus all the free trials), but is that because they're using their market position to pay the developers peanuts?
@Ile
I play Infinite as well mainly campaign and do enjoy.
Really I’m getting that it could and should have been bigger and better in scope.
It’s a one trick open world environmental, meaning the same over the whole land, also no weather effects etc either.
It’s like going to same place to work each day.
@Ile
Do you play destiny 2 I find that a could gass game
Which is multiplatform and cross play as well.
@Ile
Just getting back into it more for the gunplay
And diverse action and environments campaign wise. That’s what I was moaning about with Infinite, I so wish it had been more, that was all.
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