Microsoft Files Statement In Support Of Epic Games Against Apple

“Even uncertainty about the Unreal Engine’s ability to continue supporting iOS and macOS will make it less likely for Microsoft (and, I believe, other game creators) to select Unreal Engine for their projects.”
“The statement also goes on to say that if Unreal Engine couldn't support games for iOS or MacOS, Microsoft would be required to choose between abandoning its customers and potential customers on those platforms or opting for a different game engine.”
The latter sounds like the right direction to me. Microsoft has the largest software prowess and historical advantage to pull off something like that and save billions of $ in licenses payment to that Tim Swooney. In fact Microsoft is in the perfect position since it already has vastly mature software development ecosystem and services.

It does not sound like MS is taking Epic side entirely, as much as they are saying that taking away all access to dev tools is overkill, and Apple should just kill just the one app.

I do think, though, it's up to Epic. They can just obey their contractual agreement, remove the payment loophole, and continue their case in court while doing business as before. They just don't want to because they really want to hold their own players hostage.

I don't agree with Apple on many things, but this I agree on. Everyone out there charges 30% on their platforms, and Apple making profit of their hardware is a lame reason to single them out. Don't forget consoles make a profit after a few years and Google does not make a penny of android devises sold, yet Epic is treating Google the same way.

@Tharsman You don’t seem to understand? Apple are threatening to revoke the licence for ALL Unreal Engine games in the App Store! Not just Fortnite, so no game using the engine will work and will be removed off the store. It’s pathetic and I hope Apple loses, with the EU digging it’s claws in and as a result the US also investigating them, people are smelling blood and rightfully so too. Remember Apple has special arrangements with Uber and Amazon and Netflix which it will not extend to others. That’s anti competitive as per the complaints against them currently being investigated. The similar situation happened with Microsoft and it’s Internet Explorer, the company came incredibly close to being split up over that, and they faced hefty EU fines and had to do why the EU requested in the end, and they have been fined since for breaches of a similar nature, the EU has also heavily fined Google over differing breaches of regulation too, plus the fact Apple is attempting to get its 12 billion dollars in back taxes back from the EU which Ireland owes.
It’s not looking good for these greedy giant American corporations, Microsoft excluded currently, but Apple is particularly arrogant about it all too to boot and I doubt that goes down well and won’t win them any leeway.
A 30% cut is disgusting. People will proclaim its business, no it’s pure greed and proof capitalism does not work all the time.
IMO since Jobs does Apple has slid further and further down the toilet in its obsession with chasing share price.

Does anyone feel like there is something else going on in the background? Maybe it’s the conspiracy theorist in me but why all of this at this time?

Companies worth billions fighting over $. Apple blocking XCloud is beyond ridiculous. But Epic brought in on themselves by circumventing the 30% thing.

It is making me strongly consider going with Android for my next phone, however.

@S1ayeR74 You are wrong, Apple is NOT threatening to kill all unreal engine games.

What is at contest is that they will not be able to update the iOS version of the engine further, preventing devs from using newer versions of the engine to update their software, eventually, it is expected the engine even on its current firm, would not work on future major revisions of iOS.

Also, Apple has no arrangement with Netflix. They simply manage their subscriptions outside the app, via the web, while obeying the rules (can't link to the website from the app)

Uber offers real world services, Apple policy always has strictly applied only to digital goods and services.

Amazon is the only exception out there, only for video rentals, only on Apple TV.

If you think 30% is too much, you better apply that to everyone, even consoles.

@Tharsman Yes when iOS is updated every single unreal engine game will stop working so I am right, don’t know why you think otherwise?

And yes Apple DOES have special a agreement with Amazon:

http://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/21/news-publishers-ask-apple-for-the-same-app-store-deal-it-gave-amazon.html#:~:text=News%20industry%20body%20Digital%20Content%20Next%20has%20written,App%20Store%2C%20lower%20than%20a%20customary%2030%25%20fee.

I couldn’t find a link to the one with Netflix. But it does allow the Uber app to use different rules to everyone else.

And yes 30% is disgusting for Apple doing nothing. Because it will take 30% of a penny as much as a hundred pounds. It’s rules are draconian and purely designed to defeat competition to itself. This will be seen but the EU competition commission who will punish Apple or kick them out of the EU, you need a licence to operate in differing countries and that can be revoked.

@S1ayeR74 have you ever published software to the app store? Because I have, and am very familiar how the process works, even familiar with what happens when my license was no longer valid.

And no, Uber does not use any different rules. It is part of Apple's rules that real world services don't have to pay and can take credit card payment directly. This includes best buy, grubhub, Target, Pizza Hut, litteraly any real world service.

Despite this, Amazon can't sell ebooks or music via their app, because of these rules.

Just a reminder, Microsoft has to watch out what exactly they are siding with.
The Xbox store (as well as PS store etc) also all take 30% and as far as I know you can’t just put in your own solution regarding payment and subscriptions.
So I think in that regard Microsoft shouldn’t open its mouth, as they are not better than Apple.
So if people say Apples rules are draconian with their 30%, then please also go to all the other parties that take 30% and criticize them as well (Xbox, PSN, Steam).

One solution I see is that Apple allows third party app stores to be installed as an option. But that will come with a bunch of other issues Apple will have to deal with first, which they want to avoid. (Rise in malware, cracked iOS games)

As a developer (and ex-iOS developer) myself, I was always fine with 30%. And I also implemented ways to avoid paying anything to Apple (just like Netflix does) at the cost of UX.
And I can understand that a large company that is capable of implementing its own systems may see it ridiculous that they have to pay Apple 30% for something they are forced to use but don’t want to.

Honestly, I think Apple should allow devs to implement their own payment processing systems to avoid paying Apple 15/30%. But where does that then leave other stores (Xbox, PSN, etc)?
I am all for Apple allowing xCloud, as that is just ridiculous. And the above issue is also understandable.
But for the 30% revenue split problem I fail to see a quick and easy solution without bringing the same problem to other platforms as well. People don’t think enough about the consequences possible solutions can bring.

So Epic, aka Tencent, aka the Chinese State is waging war on apples orwellian business, and Microsoft is jumping into the fray because an entire industry's business is at stake due to apples dictatorship.

The troubling part is the Chinese State is the only faction even making sense here....

And yet Microsoft would have done the same thing as Apple as their developer TOS reads very similar. Are Microsoft happy for developers on Xbox to try to sneak things in too? Be careful what you wish for Microsoft.

The wording is very clear. Microsoft will also terminate for a breach of contract

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/946581/000104746914000555/a2218068zex-10_1.htm

@tatsumi Unlike Apple though you can simply walk into a grocery store and buy your game off the shelf.... does the same 30% rule apply then??

@Grot No it’s been clearly reported, it will remove their developers account which means Epic will not be able to update their engine which means it will NOT work with new iOS updates. Time and time again Apple has required apps to update to continue working due to some new feature or rule, iOS 14 will no doubt be the same and it’s just around the corner, and according to Apple the majority of iOS owners update, probably because Apple tends to shove the updates in your face, so your wrong no Unreal Engine game will work and I bet anything Apple will require all games to be updated after iOS 14 is installed.
That’s the reading games vanish from the store because the devs aren’t able to constantly keep them updated just to work with Apples latest iOS.

Seems like a lot of Apple defenders on here. Sorry but Apple fully deserves this as does the whole industry 30% is just pure greed. Anyway I suspect the EU will force Apple to change, maybe others will then follow?

In fact let’s compare shall we? On my iPhone I can ONLY get an app or game from Apple, NO where else, and due to this they force the developers to abide by there rules apart from some it seems..

On a games console I can buy my game from the store built into the console, a huge choice of physical brick and mortar stores, a huge selection of online retailers, I can even buy them second hand from again a huge selection of brick and mortar stores and online retailers. I can even borrow a game to play totally free..
And then I even have the choice to use other e stores on my console like EAs store to get my games right on my games console BY PASSING the Xbox e store...
So with Apple I have one choice and one choice only, with a games console I have a plethora of choices, so cut the hypocrisy here trying to compare Microsoft as the same as Apple it clearly is not with the Xbox....

@S1ayeR74 funny you ask about walking into a store, since publishers only end up seeing about 45% from physical sales when all is said and done. Oh and this is only new copies. If you buy second hand, as you mention being an option, the publisher gets zero.

https://latimesblogs.latimes.com/entertainmentnewsbuzz/2010/02/anatomy-of-a-60-dollar-video-game.html

As for updates, I had games that were published (by me and by others) that had not been updated since 2011, in some cases, continue to work until Apple removed 32 bit binary support.

Software does NOT break every time Apple releases a new update, the things that change the most drastically are Apple UI APIs that games almost never use.

It still sucks, if Unreal decided to stop updating the engine for iOS, developers would be in a tough spot. Even then, Epic has options to keep updating the engine without ever again publishing to Apple platforms, but I (almost) would understand it if they opted not to.

Sooner or later, feature parity with other platforms would be a bigger issue for devs than anything else, and some might decide to migrate to other engines.

@themightyant yes I get that. I was saying the timing seems “planned”, like a coordinated effort.

@tatsumi "As a developer (and ex-iOS developer) myself, I was always fine with 30%. And I also implemented ways to avoid paying anything to Apple (just like Netflix does) at the cost of UX."

This is something a lot of people seem to think cant happen, in great part because Epic seems to be doing a good job at shrugging it under the rug.

Devs can setup payment systems outside their app, on the web. The game or app simply can not mention the website, or link to it. Devs want to collect payments, they need to do the marketing for that themselves to let them know where to spend the money.

Apple has actually allowed this forever, consoles just recently started offering this, and only because it is required for Cross Play (vbucks sold on XBox need to be available in PS4, main reason PlayStation held back for so long on allowing cross-play at all.)

Epic specifically can sell you vbucks on any platform you play at, even Epic store launcher (where they keep all the money) and make those vbucks available on iOS. Hell, Epic could update Fortnite to not accept any payments in the game itself, they just dont want to, because they know people mostly buy on impulse, and the minute they think about going to a website, they change their minds.

"Honestly, I think Apple should allow devs to implement their own payment processing systems to avoid paying Apple 15/30%. But where does that then leave other stores (Xbox, PSN, etc)?"

I honestly still think 30% is peanuts compared to how little money a dev would see before in the standard retail space. There is a reason so many devs still sell through Steam, whom also takes 30%, despite PC being an open platform and the devs having the option to sell their games directly through their own websites. Also one of the reasons why so many big publishers are pushing soooo hard for players to go all digital.

The only thing I think Apple really should do is allow users to side-load apps the way you can on Android. Warn the user every time they install software from outside the store, make them go through a process to open that functionality so they never get themselves into that accidentally by clicking "ok" too many times. At that point, Epic can offer users a side-loaded game store of their own (although it likely will fail as much as it did on Android.)

@Grot well if you know of a device that’s as good and reliable as the Apple Watch do tell, I am yet to see one on Android. Especially with all the medical certifications the Apple Watch has.