Lately I've been seeing an increasing amount of disrespectful comments on this site and it's really bothering me. Simply not liking a game is fine (I dislike a ton of them!), but some readers tend to take it to the next level and claim that a game was bad due to "laziness" or a developer just doing it for "the money." These are absurd claims with no merit, as if you're in game design (hell, or games journalism) for the money then you're really barking up the wrong tree!
I don't understand how some gamers claim to enjoy games yet have such an active disdain towards the people who make their hobby a reality. Even more so, they pride themselves in stubbornness and ignorance instead of trying to learn more about the business and understand why games come out poorly.
Games are made by incredibly hard working, passionate people. It's not as simple of saying they didn't work hard. This is a business with time constraints, budgets, and inevitably a product needs to be shipped.
This toxic attitude sucks, and it's especially frustrating to see here when Ken has built this site on transparency and respect towards both gamers, and developers. All with the goal of making the industry, the fanbase and the coverage of it better as a whole.
It's not about agreeing or opinions, it's about common courtesy and respecting human beings for the blood, sweat & tears they put into their work.
So I guess I'll stay stubborn in my ideals that gamers should respect hard working people, and that I won't pretend to know the circumstance of every development cycle. I hope our readers will join me in making a more positive comment section that's both understanding and critical in its thinking. It's hard to do, but it can be done.
Seriously though I have noticed this alot lately as well and not just here but on Nintendo Life as well and even on Push Square. Heck it's has become so bad on NL now that I rarely go there anymore, heck I even get attacked there for stating an opinion and even backing it up with facts as to why I came to this conclusion.
But I digress. I don't know why but it seems to have become alot worst lately I don't know if it's this generation and the fact that you are for the most part anyomous on the interent or something entirely different. Heck even today I saw on Push Square an article about a developer getting deat threats for delaying a game. WTF???
Anyway I applaud your stand and I hope it works. Good luck!!!
RetiredPush Square Moderator and all around retro gamer.
Looks lazy and feels lazy, I'm going to call it what it is. It's not about 'despising' the people who make games, it's about disdain for stuff that ends up crap. Don't like the stance? Tough. I guess that's the thing, I really don't give a damn what people think about me or my opinions. I'm not going to sit here and be like a Greg Miller or anybody else who wants to kiss people's a$$es. There's a lot of people in this industry who work hard and get undeserved criticism... Threatening developers' lives over delays? Threatening members of the dev team and threatening to rape a voice actress because SquareEnix makes a business decision (Sony fanboys actually did this to Camilla Luddington)? That's ridiculous. Calling out something like the new TMNT game, and the dev team, for exactly what that product is? Sorry, as anybody else, I'm entitled to my opinion. If somebody doesn't like it, and they disagree, that's fine, but to say it's ignorant is insulting. I've played enough games in my years to know what's lazy and what isn't. Pitiful, uninspired level design is lazy. And I work under not really ideal conditions also, so in that sense I can sympathize with these people to a degree. It's still no excuse for a bad end product.
I can totally agree with what @Gamer83 says about some devs. You take a game like Street Fighter V, or the new TMNT game and you can tell it's a quick cash in. However is that the devs fault or the corporation they are working for?
Some of these devs are just doing what they are told to keep their job and put food on their family's table. Are they happy at the kind of stuff they are pushing out maybe, maybe not who knows. Point is if the big Boss who signs their paycheck comes and says ok that game has to be out by X time so those levels you are working on we will just add them in as DLC two months after launch, they comply. Not everyone can do like Kojima or Igarashi and just say F you I want to do my game my way.
RetiredPush Square Moderator and all around retro gamer.
@tylertreese: Whilst I agree, in principle, with your comments, there are occasions where criticism of the route taken by a developer to bring a game to market is justified. We have all read reviews where the expression 'a nod to the original' crops up. Its a very very fine line between 'a nod to the original' and 'rehashed content'. Many developers are guilty of this and gamers are perfectly justified in calling it out. Similarly, the trend since the release of xbox one of developers releasing frankly 'broken' games has drastically increased and people are perfectly justified again calling out the 'It will do' mentality that occasionally comes to the fore.
If criticism constructive and justifiable them I really don't see the problem. Remember, forums are a vehicle for opinions. Sometimes, one doen't agree with those, so be it.
@Tasuki:
I get that part about having to do what you have to do as well. Which is why I do cut my disgust off at a certain point. I'll make my opinion on the game (and if need be the publisher and developer as well) very clear on forums but I never take to social media to slam developers or publishers for that matter and I certainly don't make threats of bodily harm. It's stupid because it doesn't get anything done and right or wrong the entire gaming community look bad. Most importantly, it's just not the right thing to do. I'll get p*ssed, but at the end of the day if a developer really disappoints me, I just have to vote with my wallet even if it means quitting on a franchise I love such as Street Fighter.
But as Anita Sarkeesian said "It's both possible, and even necessary, to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of it."
@utena-mobile Exactly. This is what I'm getting at. Criticism is great (and how I make a living), but there's a difference between criticism and just whining. I really like a lot of the community here, and I want to discuss more stuff here (so I'lll be trying to use the forums more often).
@sorethumbed like I said in the first post the problem here isn't criticism or opinions. It's how they're expressed. In my review of TMNT I talked about a lot of its shortcomings, and weirdly not one of my 1,000+ words were calling the people who made the game "lazy." Did I call out the repetitve level design? You bet I did, but I didn't assume it was a lack of effort.
@Tasuki I can assure you the people working on Street Fighter V didn't ask Capcom to ship the game before they had basic game modes put in, and even then it wasn't a lazily designed game. They made an extremely polished game that might be my favorite fighting game to play. It's just one with a disappointing amount of content. Also, I find it hilarious that I'm defending Street Fighter V after I got harassed after giving it 2 and a half stars lol.
And like I said, it's fine to be upset with a product or a company. I'm upset quite often at developer choices and publisher decisions! I just want the community as a whole to express themselves better and do so more productively. We can do so much to further discussion instead of just "this game sucks" and "lazy dev cash in."
It's like when someone goes into a comment section and posts "This doesn't interest me." Well, that doesn't add anything to the conversation. Really no need to post that. If I sent out a tweet every time something didn't interest me, I'd be a pretty awful Twitter follow. Instead comment on something that is interesting to you, or at least say why it's not interesting instead of a comment with zero substance.
There's a big difference between me wandering into a DOOM thread and going "This doesn't interest me" and me posting "As a huge fan of Doom 3, I'm really concerned with the direction they're taking this sequel. I was hoping for a more mature story, but this seems like more senseless violence." Neither of those are actually how I feel about DOOM, but you can tell which statement is adding to the conversation.
There's interesting conversations to be had about games, even bad ones. So, I look forward to having them here!
@tylertreese: The problem is, unfortunately, lots of people have neither the education nor the inclination to expand on "this game sucks". For them, that's as much as they can (be bothered to) muster. For others, it's a language issue (secondary language). I must admit though, I've played a few turkeys in my time and 'this game sucks' would have been a kindness
Looks lazy and feels lazy, I'm going to call it what it is. It's not about 'despising' the people who make games, it's about disdain for stuff that ends up crap. Don't like the stance? Tough.
Well is isn't "tough" at all, really. We have moderation controls that we try not to use.
I want people to 100% have freedom of speech. That's the first rule I follow when it comes to moderation. However - and it's a big "however" - at some point there has to be moderation of some sort, or we turn into every single other site that exists online. When that happens, your opinion absolutely won't matter at all anyway, since it'll just be you making some good and valid points which scroll off the screen in 20 seconds because there are 100 other posters who have all weighed in with "LOL PLATINUM SUX THIS GAME SUX LAZY DEVZ."
I guess that's the thing, I really don't give a damn what people think about me or my opinions.
Sure you do. If you didn't, you wouldn't post them. You're looking for people to agree with you or to generate a persona for yourself or to create controversy with every comment, just like every single other person on the internet who ever posts a comment, tweet, Facebook status, or anything else. If you didn't care, it wouldn't be important for anybody else to hear it.
This isn't a criticism in any way, honestly! It's just the way things are.
Calling out something like the new TMNT game, and the dev team, for exactly what that product is? Sorry, as anybody else, I'm entitled to my opinion. If somebody doesn't like it, and they disagree, that's fine, but to say it's ignorant is insulting.
I see it could be taken that way, absolutely. But, the problem is that we end up walking into the badlands a little bit with that approach. If I call a developer lazy - which is an insulting accusation - and I take the stance that they can go to hell if they don't like it because it's my opinion and I'm allowed my opinion, I can't then get upset because someone insults me by calling my argument ignorant. Why would I deserve protection from insults whereas it's open season on a developer for releasing a game that you don't have to buy?
I can totally agree with what @Gamer83 says about some devs. You take a game like Street Fighter V, or the new TMNT game and you can tell it's a quick cash in. However is that the devs fault or the corporation they are working for?
I absolutely agree with your post.
I mentioned it on the review thread, but I'm a software/web developer by trade to pay the bills. I have never gone into a project thinking "I'm going to absolutely half-ass this and make something that's not good" and I start every project with the best end-goal in mind. But then a client suddenly needs the job finished in half the time we agreed, or the client says that they definitely want Extra Feature A and Extra Feature B that they never mentioned but that by themselves, will take more time than I've quoted for the whole job...but they still want it all completed by the original time.
If I've put in a week of proposals, planning, coding, conference calls and more by this point - time is money, remember - and the client says "Well, if you can't do it, we'll find someone else..." then I've got two options. I can either take their non-refundable deposit and wave goodbye to the other 75% of the money, or I can crunch to get things done in time for them and charge them a little bit more. The second one ALWAYS results in a product that isn't as good as it could have been.
I don't believe any game developer thinks "We'll make something that's not very good."
The problem is, unfortunately, lots of people have neither the education nor the inclination to expand on "this game sucks". For them, that's as much as they can (be bothered to) muster. For others, it's a language issue (secondary language). I must admit though, I've played a few turkeys in my time and 'this game sucks' would have been a kindness
Absolutely. What I'm trying to avoid happening on pX is the kind of "drive-by s***posting" (not my term) that turns up on other sites, where the first comment is always "FIRST! LOLOLOL" and everything after it is either a console war statement or "this game sucks."
Simple fact is that the more posts we get like that, the less likely we are to get intelligent discussion in the comments. I know I don't weigh in when I see a comment thread that's just full of vitriol. Usually. Though sometimes I can't help myself because I have no willpower.
We might not always get it right. But, I think this forum topic by Tyler is a good one and addresses a specific issue.
(I will also say that I haven't played the new TMNT as yet. I also pre-defend myself from using the term "lazy approach" in an upcoming review, as that's quite different to calling someone lazy and saying that all their future games should be avoided. )
@SuperKMx:
Well, I've been insulted plenty of times across all three websites so I'm not looking for protection from it, but I will defend my stance when I feel it needs to be defended. Aside from that, you're absolutely right, it's your website, you do what you have to with my comments since it appears the staff here has gotten very sensitive all the sudden to, frankly, valid statements. If a game has lazy, repetitive level design, lazy writing, lazy gameplay, it's a lazy effort. I'm not going to call it anything else if that's what I think it is.
@SuperKMx:
Well, I've been insulted plenty of times across all three websites so I'm not looking for protection from it, but I will defend my stance when I feel it needs to be defended. Aside from that, you're absolutely right, it's your website, you do what you have to with my comments since it appears the staff here has gotten very sensitive all the sudden to, frankly, valid statements. If a game has lazy, repetitive level design, lazy writing, lazy gameplay, it's a lazy effort. I'm not going to call it anything else if that's what I think it is.
Fair enough. I will stress that I'm not singling anybody out, I was just addressing your posts in this thread with my response.
I don't think it's that the staff has "gotten very sensitive" to valid statements. I think it's because - speaking for myself, as I'm the one that deals with them mostly - we are seeing a lot of drive by posts that if left unmoderated, would essentially cause the comment system to break down. They're removed before they're seen by readers, most of the time. Nearly all of them are either insults about review scores (standard) or direct shots at developers from people who haven't played the game they're posting about. Or they're shots at developers trying to make money and stay alive to make the next game (that the commenter will probably buy, even though they'll probably s***post about it on every single article all the same) or attacks on developers for decisions that have been made by the publisher.
The Batman Arkham remasters spring to mind. The comments left on that article is probably about 60% of what was actually posted. I removed the drive by s***posts from non-regulars because I was getting sick of it. Wouldn't mind, but the developer under fire isn't even working on the remasters, I'm told. Even if they were, they've made at least three fantastic games but now Warners are remastering/republishing two of them and has left out a couple from the franchise, the developer is lazy and screw them and the hole they crawled out of, dammit! It just doesn't seem all that mature.
It's more a case of nipping things in the bud and creating a positive space where people can talk about games intelligently, as opposed to letting the whole thing go nuts and then wondering what to do about it later.
@Utena-mobile:
All I'm saying is the game is lazy. If that means I'm calling the dev team lazy then that's what I'm doing. My posts on this website have been more than evenly balanced. When a game is good I give credit where it's due and if I think it's trash and the developer did a poor job I'm going to say that as well. This really didn't warrant a whole thread. I also don't make too many one off comments although I do pride myself on being accountable and while I'm not going to go back and look at my posting history I'm sure I've dropped a one-sentence nonsense post before like 'game sucks.' It happens, a lot of us do it and shouldn't. No excuses. I try to make that the exception to what I post, not the rule, however.
@tylertreese:
That's fine, but sometimes developers have to be held accountable for a poor end product. Just like at my job I have to be held accountable if I f**k up. Even if there are things beyond my control leading to a worse product than I'd like, my name is still on it.
@Gamer83 where am I saying that shouldn't be done? Did my 4/10 review of TMNT not do that? How about my 2 and a half star review of Street Fighter V? You're barking up the wrong tree here. Pretty sure I keep companies accountable.
@Gamer83: The thing though I don't get with your logic is as I said before sometimes it might not be the devs fault at all but the corporation or parent company. To blame them, and insult them is not right. And if that's how they handle things at your job, to blame you when it's not your fault, then no offense that is a bad place to work.
RetiredPush Square Moderator and all around retro gamer.
@Tasuki:
It pays the bills and I'm happy. That's all I'm going to say about it. And as I said in the comments for the review. You have to know what you're getting into when you lock into a contract, especially with Activision. It's not all the devs fault, but they did make a bad game and to call it such isn't being 'disrespectful.' But I guess it's also my fault. I have a hard time adjusting to current societal standard where everybody is special, you get a trophy if you finish in 100th place out of 100 and you pass off the blame, even if you were involved with something that went wrong.
@Utena-mobile: nah 2 and a half stars out of 5. Not 2.5/10. Sorry, should've specified.
Also re: complaints about games, I'd only make a forum topic if it's super lengthy like you said. Once again, not trying to say don't complain about games on the site - just asking users to do it respectfully (which isn't hard to do). Don't think I've ever seen you be disrespectful, I always like seeing your comments
If you've got like 5 paragraphs and a big wall of text then it's best to take it to the forums in some form.
It's not all the devs fault, but they did make a bad game and to call it such isn't being 'disrespectful.' But I guess it's also my fault. I have a hard time adjusting to current societal standard where everybody is special, you get a trophy if you finish in 100th place out of 100 and you pass off the blame, even if you were involved with something that went wrong.
A) Nobody ever said that calling a game bad is disrespectful. It's not.
B) You missed every single point made here, and I'm guessing that's willingly so
C) I'd appreciate if you stopped commenting on this thread with that attitude.
@Utena-mobile: nah, can't say I venture over to nintendolife very often. Not very interested in their coverage.
Also, I'm gonna lock this up since I feel like this did its job. If anyone wants to talk about this further (or has any concerns) feel free to message me tyler [at] purexbox.com.
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